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Post by rosamburg on Jan 6, 2012 20:59:02 GMT -5
I do feel so very fortunate not to have to pay for our helper work. I pay club fees but that includes 2 days a week at club with a couple of helpers. We have a regulation size field, a beautiful heated clubhouse with bar, big screen t.v. and nice leather furniture.  I hope to god that we don't end up with a system like that here. This sport is expensive enough with traveling, and dog equipment etc. Right now I find it not to bad and considering it's my main hobby I think it's a pretty affordable one. You live in a culture that appears similar but which is really very different than the USA. The same is true with the Schutzhund culture in Canada. I don't know if it is the stronger European influence, less individualism or what. You stated in an earlier post you think you are seeing some easy judging. I have been to a fair number of trials. I actually have competed more in Canada than in the USA. In general in Canadian trials you are going to see more pressure, and as far as Canadian judges (for the most part) much lower scores. I just don't think there are many USA counterparts to guys like Frank Mensing, Doug Deacon and Lance Collins (all of which have judged at the WUSV at least once) There are exceptions to this of course. There are clubs in Canada as well who bring in the easiest SV or USA judges and are noted for weak sauce helper work. That is in spite of the fact that I think USA judges are 2 to 3 times more expensive even before the added travel expenses. |
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Post by dobimouse on Jan 7, 2012 0:37:10 GMT -5
Hi, Lisa,
thank you very much for compliments!!! ;D
Well it is very hard to find good Doberman bitches and studs for breed. The old working lines are no longer available but more important: they are no longer welcome in Germany! As someone wrote before: it's MONEY what determines the breed, specially in show-lines.
@ rosamburg:
I aggree with you to 100%
You are absolutely right, but if you will breed working-lines (Doberman), you have no other chance to avoid a high inbreed coefficient. For example: in Germany it is banned to take frozen samen!!
Another important aspect of ensuring that the working dog is slowly disappearing, is that many breeders consider themselves as rivals instead of working together.
Also another important fact is that the breeding regulations are not uniform throughout the world. Each country is allowed to do what it wants. In one country you need the HD analysis, the dogs must be titled with BH and ZTP, the other country needs not. In addition to that, the breeding checks abroad are pretty bad: There are no breedwards, no DNA tests to confirm that parents are the real parents of the puppies. And so on....
In my opinion, the breeding regulations must be regulated globally uniform.
And we need more breeders who breed the Doberman with conviction and help to protect and to support the Doberman as a working dog with health and long life.
Ulrike
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Post by esther on Jan 7, 2012 6:00:21 GMT -5
"to think that there is only one dog in NA that could compete at world level is nonsense.It is a insult to some people working hard and have decent dogs" BTW no insult intended, my mention of Gamy Von Der Burgstatte was for a "world all breed level" Super dog/super genetics, professional handler/trainer and just a guess deep pockets. That was my criteria to make it to that level! I would guess I am not the only one who thinks so. The post was about world level all breed championship. In NA level I would agree to agree there are some good candidates. My post in regards to the breeders I listed imo are my favorite genetic lines for strong candidates for sport or work! Hi Octavian2 - think you are missing the point here. The original post was asking about 'World/ international/ national/ regional' quality dogs. Dogs that can hold their own competing at the higher levels. Not to take anything away from Gamy Von Der Burgstatte, but you are talking about a club level dog - home field, home helper, trained and handled by a professional. This is exactly what the original post was trying to point out!!! Just because a dog performs well at a club level doesn't mean the dog can perform well at higher level events. And while everyone is entitled to their own opinion, your 'breeders list' of favorite genetic lines for strong candidates for sport or work seems to be missing many of the current IDC World Championship and German Working Championship winners, yet includes 'unknown/unproven' names. Leaving me to wonder how you have based your selection? |
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Post by octavian2 on Jan 7, 2012 8:16:43 GMT -5
Hi Esther, Candidates are just that until they compete and are successful. I am not sure but I think Gamy would have to participate in the AWDF and get a "V" score before she could go to the IDC and then to an all breed championship and who knows if thats something they are interested in. It's not something I think she would do tomorrow but next year who knows it doesn't mean it could not happen either. I would like to see someone in NA do it! The original post- 1) The currant state of the breed in regards to working ability in Europe and NA) No my list of a few breeders does not list the currant IDC or DV DM winners but 4 have had more than 1 dog participate in both the IDC/ German Championship the last 3 years. and Ulrike (Von Spellen) used Ringo vom Burgwald IDC/German Vize Champion in 3 of her litters in the last 3 years. Von Schwarzen Wachter has a nice litter due at the end of the month Quint vom Edertal (participant 3 last IDC/German) X Beretta. Anyone who is interested can go study the lines if they want and do their own research. As I said IMO these breeders are all contributing to the working line dobermanns for sport or real work. Who are the breeders you think are contributing to the future of the working line dobermanns Esther?
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 7, 2012 12:56:01 GMT -5
"to think that there is only one dog in NA that could compete at world level is nonsense.It is a insult to some people working hard and have decent dogs" BTW no insult intended, my mention of Gamy Von Der Burgstatte was for a "world all breed level" Super dog/super genetics, professional handler/trainer and just a guess deep pockets. That was my criteria to make it to that level! I would guess I am not the only one who thinks so. The post was about world level all breed championship. In NA level I would agree to agree there are some good candidates. My post in regards to the breeders I listed imo are my favorite genetic lines for strong candidates for sport or work! Hi Octavian2 - think you are missing the point here. The original post was asking about 'World/ international/ national/ regional' quality dogs. Dogs that can hold their own competing at the higher levels. Not to take anything away from Gamy Von Der Burgstatte, but you are talking about a club level dog - home field, home helper, trained and handled by a professional. This is exactly what the original post was trying to point out!!! Just because a dog performs well at a club level doesn't mean the dog can perform well at higher level events. I don't really know much about the dog. I know the breeder and my bitch's dam is from his breeding, however. I recall that when I was in Germany, Elaine told me she had selected a puppy for the Jacobson's from Marco. I don't know anything about the circumstances of the trials where they earned the titles. I must admit that for me when I saw the scores they earned, I became really curious in regards to which judges awarded the scores. I also wondered why a great example of our breed is not being campaigned at higher levels so people could see that a Dobermann can compete favorably. |
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Post by cashmando1 on Jan 7, 2012 17:05:36 GMT -5
Gamy von der Burgstatte is the mother of my new puppy that I will be bringing home shortly. I went down to New York and spent two days watching Gamy training. She is a very stable, sporty, and environmentally sound bitch. Solid on the sleeve, and very nice barking. If I had to say anything negative, is that for me I like a little more of a serious dog. However I also think Gamy is a product of how she is trained. She is a little robotic for my liking. But I know Debbi Zappia is a real precision kind of trainer and has done a wonderful job with her. I truly believe she could be a real contender at higher levels of competition, there is no doubt in my mind. Next time I talk to her owner I will ask what there future plans are with Gamy.  I have a feeling they will just have her at home for awhile and let Gamy recuperate after having 13 puppies..lol! |
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Post by cashmando1 on Jan 7, 2012 20:17:55 GMT -5
When I say robotic I mean that her obedience is almost without fault! It is beautiful to watch, I just wish in protection she would "let her hair down a little". LOL!! Show a little more I want to eat the helper attitude. |
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Post by rasmuscm on Jan 8, 2012 17:23:07 GMT -5
If you watch Gamy's performances on YouTube, you will find it very difficult to fault her scores. 'Easy' judge or not, there's not really anywhere to take the points from. Yes, it would be nice to see her earn those scores on other fields - she was ready to compete at the AWDFs last year and had to pull due to an injury.
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 9, 2012 5:07:40 GMT -5
If you watch Gamy's performances on YouTube, you will find it very difficult to fault her scores. 'Easy' judge or not, there's not really anywhere to take the points from. Yes, it would be nice to see her earn those scores on other fields - she was ready to compete at the AWDFs last year and had to pull due to an injury. I had only seen the Sch1 trial before but took the time to look at the YouTube video's. The video of the obedience phase is about what I expected out of a good working line dobermann being handled by a top professional handler. I for one would love to have the talent to show a dog at that level. There was only one glaring mistake, and that was the dog in the stand out of motion first going almost to a down position, then almost to a sit and then the stand. I think I know that dog My favorite judge tells me it is difficult to tell a whole lot from video. That you really have to be close up and live to really see everything they need to see. I of course am no judge and I thought the dog looked really good, but the Sch3 protection phase, imo, was not much of a test. I also wondered why it was the same judge in the Sch2 and Sch3 trial?? That bothers me when I see the same judge getting asked a lot to judge at the same club. I thought they were very good performances with the dog being technically correct and with what looked like good grips...but with the handler help to go into (left hand movement and what looked like touching the dog) and maintain the down position (nudging the dog with her leg) for the escape bite, good but not superior conviction in the guarding, and not enough hindering in the pressure exercises most judges I am accustomed to seeing would not score the Sch3 protection phase performance a 99. Unfortunately for me what stands out more than a nice dog doing a very good routine (which it certainly was), was the minimal presence and pressure from the helper and pretty easy scoring. I also think my mother could probably catch the helper from how close the mark was to the helper in the escape bite, LOL. I for one would really like to see the dog at a higher level on a strange field with a strong helper. I sincerely hope the dog would shine at that level. Our breed needs more of that. I also hope that a lot of the puppies go to homes where the owner follows through and will try to really accomplish something with them. |
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Post by thallyce on Jan 9, 2012 17:54:17 GMT -5
Ulrike go for it! You're doing a great job. Stand by your believes. You have my support. I never had problems finding the right studs for my breeding but now I cannot find one for my girl. The ones I do like have dogs in their lines that I do not like healthwise. Then I find a dog I like that is not tested etc etc.. When I ask them if they want to do tests they comment why bother he already 8 :-((
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Post by rasmuscm on Jan 9, 2012 19:42:31 GMT -5
Steve - The thing that Debbie did with her leg was a setup to try to get the dog in the correct position for the best direct line to the helper. I agree that technically she should have been faulted for that. I'm sure she didn't touch the dog to get her in position - that's her cue for where she expect the dog's nose to be. Again, a little handler help, agreed.
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 10, 2012 2:01:11 GMT -5
I had a chance to look at the video again. www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PVTht_AFII&list=UUYcCQ2rtJoN-_Cjz30CbGuQ&index=2&feature=plcpActually under a good tough judge the dog has blown a V score before the first bite. Blind searches are wide, she does not check the blinds as she goes around (its a slalom course for her) and then bothers the helper. The handler help on top of that takes the total score out of the V range for sure. Again I think it is a good dog, so I don't want people to take it that I don't think she is not. It just goes along what I was saying in my previous posts. I had a foreign judge tell me a while back that he finds it difficult to judge us here because many people either do not seem to know the rules or ignore them. He says when he calls them out on it they look at him like he is from Mars or say "nobody has ever said anything about it before". This includes significant handler help in many areas, in tracking dragging their feet, stomping in tracks, wide turns on corners, etc. (both on their own tracks and track-laying for others). Basically he said he hates being an asshole but has to appear so to maintain integrity in his judging, in the states. |
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 10, 2012 2:13:48 GMT -5
Steve - The thing that Debbie did with her leg was a setup to try to get the dog in the correct position for the best direct line to the helper. I agree that technically she should have been faulted for that. I'm sure she didn't touch the dog to get her in position - that's her cue for where she expect the dog's nose to be. Again, a little handler help, agreed. Handler help is handler help. It is a struggle with a good dog not to have the dog completely keyed on the helper. Where there eyes are their nose is usually right in front of it, LOL. |
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Post by cashmando1 on Jan 10, 2012 9:22:11 GMT -5
I agree the judging does not reflect the performance, although I don't think you can fault the dog really. Like I said I watched Gamy being trained and I feel she is a good dog with a clear head and a very nice pedigree. Steve, the majority of the Gamy and Eiko litter are going to good working homes. So hopefully in a couple of years a lot of these dogs will be out competing. |
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 10, 2012 11:39:07 GMT -5
I agree the judging does not reflect the performance, although I don't think you can fault the dog really. Like I said I watched Gamy being trained and I feel she is a good dog with a clear head and a very nice pedigree. Steve, the majority of the Gamy and Eiko litter are going to good working homes. So hopefully in a couple of years a lot of these dogs will be out competing. As I stated I am not faulting the dog. A high G /low SG score under a good judge is reflective of a good dog and decent training. I do see an issue here with taking these kind of expectations to the next level. What level are we trying to train and prepare for? If we are preparing a dog for this level of performance and under this quality of judge, and this kind of pressure from the helper, then what happens when we do try to take it to the next level?? I think probably a dog that finishes at the middle of the pack at best (except at a Dobermann only competition). Or if this judge is scoring to this level and is in a higher level competition then it can be a hot mess. If this level of performance gets a V score in protection where is the meat left on the bone for a dog that puts in a true V performance? It is good most of the dogs are going to working homes. We will see however....It will be an interesting discussion later how much of the potential is reached. |
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I have a feeling they will just have her at home for awhile and let Gamy recuperate after having 13 puppies..lol!