Breed improvement and trial paradigms (very long)

[patrick]

Elaine (Brown) is that you? How are you? How is the dog? Saw you sent me 2 mails on workingdog but i can't get on workingdog the last 2 months so sorry i didn't reply.. At least if you are the Elaine I think you are LOL...

[rosamburg]

Great to see you on here Elaine. I still am very grateful for all of your help while I was visiting Germany. I am also continually overwhelmingly amazed by your knowledge. I also understand and acknowledge that many people do not have a cohesive system to work from. I really think it is something a club has to strive for. I have seen a few clubs in Canada that were in this predicament. They banded together and really work at developing this. They choose a mentor they believe in and do their best to develop a positive atmosphere for growth. It seems that many clubs bring in one seminar presenter after another. They pick pieces from this and that methodology. I have been to clubs and seen nobody working together. At these clubs, if you were to ask 4 different people the same question about training you would get a different answer from everyone. It seems to me clubs would do better to pick one presenter and bring them back until there is consistency and everyone is on the same page.

In terms of injuries, a few things come to mind. If you have a fast dog, you want to take extra care to make sure the helper is experienced and a safe catch. We have a dog at the club that is the hardest hitting dog I have ever seen. To get an idea of the overall power of this dog, Yogi Zank said he had never seen anything like him. You don't see the handler doing a lot of courage tests with the dog. I think it is important to remain cognizant of this. Another thing that Yogi brought up was the need to properly warm up a dog prior to training and to trialing. I know I have neglected this in the past.

[rosamburg]

Jan 4, 2012 16:23:36 GMT -5 octavian2 said:

Steve, I will not discuss the ZTP here with you I realize the helper is your friend and club helper.

I would have called you out regardless of who the helper was. The fact he is an excellent helper that volunteered his time for the event just made it more distasteful. To me the fact he is a friend and belongs to my club has really nothing to do with it.

[quote author=octavian2 board=breed thread=902 post=4680 time=1325712216My reply was to your post about The currant state of the working dobermann and "why do our best dogs seem to falter at high levels of all breed competition[/quote] The funny thing is you did not even get what I was saying. I never said that working line Dobermann's are shitters like you somehow seem to be reading into in my post. I said that the status quo of trialing paradigms is holding our breed back. I also raised the question as to why we are not more successful at higher levels.

I for one think that under the right conditions, with a little better focus on temperament development in breeding programs, better preparation and training, that our dogs could have the potential to compete with the GSD and Malinois on a higher level than they do today.

In addition I raised the point that too many people trialing seem to be trying to take the very easy route, IMO. It is also my opinion that this cherry-picking of judges, helpers and trials can spell disaster for the overall quality of all breeds. The reason being that it reaches a state where it is no longer a valid test of the working ability, and temperament of the dog. This is true in all breeds, not just the Dobermann. Unfortunately with the working Dobermann we are dealing with a much smaller gene pool so the effects, in my opinion, can be devastating.

Anyone who has been around the sport for awhile knows who the Santa Claus judges are. If clubs seem to be somehow extending exclusive selection of only a couple of these judges (and sometimes with just one judge) and neglect to bring in other judges then it should be raising serious red flags for people. If the scores under these judges are continually in the very high SG to V range then the people with experience in the sport should take it with a grain of salt.

I am coming to the opinion that who the dogs successfully trial under should be more important than the scores they receive.

[octavian2]

I understand your post and I made myself clear imo I think it more or less applies to IPO sport and is not a breed issue. "dogs faltering at high level competition" I did not think you where saying the dobermann's where shitters! but some how thought the breed was faltered at that level because of the numbers or a lack of training. I think that can be said of any of the working breeds. I don't train with dobermanns like most people so I see more GSD's that do not make the grade and those are the ones imo more so picking the Santa Claus judges. The points made here about the dobermann is no dog to be trained in the same way as the GSD is totally correct and finding clubs with TD/helpers that recognize this or even want to can be challenging. I happen to think the German breeders are the ones responsible for keeping the dobermann working lines going and that of course is just my opinion! I know when I was looking for a puppy there was nothing here in NA I was interested in. Does that mean anyone here doing breeding is insulted I should think not. Sorry you where not impressed with the training you saw in Germany I know your stories but imo they are more serious about it have more people training dobermanns and I think the German Team the last few years has done a spectacular job to represent the working dobermann. I will look forward to seeing some of the NA dobermanns compete in the near future. As I said before there have been some interesting breedings in the past few years!

[landgraf]

I think it really comes down to money and this economy as to why we have seen a drop off of Dobermans at big competition. I know for myself because I live in a "pay per bite" area in order to stay working my dogs I have had to take in a dog for training to be able to afford it. This then gives me even less time to train my own dogs. Several friends have left the sport, this economy has just been to hard on them and I am barely hanging on. Unfortunatly there has not been an all breed USA National withing a 15 hour drive in 5-6 years I think and having a spare $5000 just isn't possible for many to go. If you look at who has been competing and were the events have been in the last 3 years all dobe competitors have been within a 12 hr drive of the event.
Also The GSD's get quite a bit of money to compete at international events be it WUSV or FCI we the Dobes maybe $500 if were lucky and that only covers the dogs flight 1 way :-(
So I think it isn't a fair statement to say no dobes are copeting at the moment when we are in the worst economy in 80 yrs. I desperately have been wanting to compete I have the best dog I have ever had be it GSD, Mali or Dobe but how ironic I am unable to aford it. Luckily my boy is still only 3 yrs old so the future still has a fair amout of time for us. Unfortunatly there is just no money left two work my girl and tracking is free so that is what we do for her.
I actually think there are alot of nice dobes out there and believe the breed is in a resurgence. Maybe it is a glass half full thinking or just me looking down at the fury bodies at my feet.
Just my two cents on the current state of things I'm sure much different for others.

Wendy

[rosamburg]

Certainly there are great clubs with systems that have great results in Germany. However I think many people would be surprised at how many clubs and trainers there that cannot be described as such. This is the case in the heartland of Dobermann working line breeders. I just have to say I was surprised at the lack of modern and more effective training methods at most of the clubs I visited. At these clubs there were little pockets of people who were the exception to this.

I agree that it is difficult to obtain the funding to compete at big events in this economy for many of us, myself included. That is understandable. However that does not take away the fact that there are other factors historically that seem to me to keep people from meeting their potential. When people quit making excuses for poor performance, take their rose-colored glasses off, and step up their game and put their dogs in real tests, then the breed will benefit.

Wendy, your point about living in pay per bite culture is exactly what I am talking about as being detrimental to the development of the sport. It can create a culture where greed has its way. When this occurs then integrity is out the window.

[Elaine]

Hi Patrick,
yes, it's me! I usually don't have the opportunity to spend time on the computer, but the weather has been so bad that the training field is mostly underwater, so we are spending more time at home instead of at the dog club.
Ijanko is coming along - I really like him, and think this will be his year to put it all together. Looking forward to the fall season- perhaps a ZTP in October, and maybe VPG and/or FH if all goes well.
Hope all is well with brother Ike and Uncle Dax, and we get a chance to get together in 2012 - Belgium is not soooo far from Germany;) Let me know if you are ever in the area....
All the best,
Elaine B-G

[Elaine]

Hi Steve,
You know you are always welcome to visit - in fact it would be great if you and John both got a chance to come over!

And yes, in general, training methodology does tend to lag in Germany. I have had many 'WTF' moments when I had to struggle to keep my mouth shut. I attribute this to the long standing, traditional aspect of the sport within the German culture (if it ain't broke, don't fix it). Newer methods, the so called 'modern ausbildung' techniques are slow to catch on here. I certainly had (and continue to have) difficulty finding trainers and helpers who share my 'modern' training methodology. I am sure I was/am regarded as an eccentric by many people here with my positive reinforcement training methods. People still cannot believe that I train with a clicker in one hand, food/ ball in the other, and an e-collar in the pocket - they just can't seem to make sense of it all. But, there are some really excellent trainers/training groups here, for example Jogi and Bart Bellon, Peter Scherk and Team Heuwinkel, who are very innovative and influencing the traditional training methodology. Things are slowly starting to evolve. Unfortunately, there are not really any strong clubs/training groups when it comes to Dobermanns - often times it seems the dogs succeed despite their training
I would love to see a 'modern' training group devoted to Dobermanns form - these training methods are perfect for Dobermanns, and combined with safe, knowledgeable helper work, the breed could really make advances.

[octavian2]

"this is a difficult time consuming sport we need to be more careful not to make it too difficult" what a great point! I have been in the sport for 6 years a lot of people I met in the beginning all left and no new ones to replace them. Good to hear that some feel the dobermann is making a come back to sports! While it's of up most important to make the best choices for breeding I think it is also just as important to insure there will be good working/sport homes for high drive serious dogs. Dog sports should be fun! Most new people do not want to train to "high level performance" and clubs that have the pressure to conform to a system or method and mentality of training is not for everyone. I was asked to ask a German friend to translate for a SV judge from Germany for a club trial last month. There were several IPO1's none of the people were new to the sport. The dogs that passed for the most part were all very low scores. I thought the judge was quite good in his critiques very to the point about what needed to be worked on. He told my friend "if I went by the book, none of these dogs would pass" some of the dogs have several times titles already and had been bred and the excuses for poor performance were every where. If the sport is to attract new people it needs to be fun, in fact a dog should be happy to be with his handler not trained to "feel being with the handler is a safe place rose colored glasses, Santa Claus judges and excuses run the gauntlet in all levels! I am not sure how or if it is even reality to "implement changes" on a sport level for breeding choices and still keep attracting the new people needed to keep the sport alive. But it is something to consider for the future and if anyone wants to post on why they feel the dobermann is making a come back I would love to hear their thoughts because I for one would love to see it happen

[octavian2]

"to think that there is only one dog in NA that could compete at world level is nonsense.It is a insult to some people working hard and have decent dogs" BTW no insult intended, my mention of Gamy Von Der Burgstatte was for a "world all breed level" Super dog/super genetics, professional handler/trainer and just a guess deep pockets. That was my criteria to make it to that level! I would guess I am not the only one who thinks so. The post was about world level all breed championship. In NA level I would agree to agree there are some good candidates. My post in regards to the breeders I listed imo are my favorite genetic lines for strong candidates for sport or work!

[dobimouse]

hello together,

I carefully followed the statements of everybody. I didn't want to post, because of my bad English some of my thoughts coul be misunderstood. But I'll try it once again:
I think the biggest problem in the U.S. is: there are not enough training places and, very importantly, there are not enough really good helpers. IMO a good helper is a good helper, if he is able to build up puppies and young dogs to respond to the dogs, I mean, they can "read" the dogs. To work a good dog is no big deal, but to make dogs with problems successful, that requires considerable expertise.
In Germany you will find training places on each edge, but to find real good helpers is the big problem as well.
The working-Doberman in Germany is at its end. Only a handful of breeders are trying to take the strain upon himself to breed working dogs. Health is, however, absolutely in the foreground for these breeders. But the showline breeders have damaged a lot. They want a Doberman, which has the appearance of a mix between Great Dane and Rottweiler: big, wide, beautiful and health is not as important for them.
I noticed that a change/paradigm shift takes place in NA. I think you're on the right track, even if it does take a while until you have reached your goal.
I hope I have expressed myself understandable?

Ulrike

[rosamburg]

Jan 5, 2012 16:02:55 GMT -5 Elaine said:

Hi Steve,
You know you are always welcome to visit - in fact it would be great if you and John both got a chance to come over!

And yes, in general, training methodology does tend to lag in Germany. I have had many 'WTF' moments when I had to struggle to keep my mouth shut. I attribute this to the long standing, traditional aspect of the sport within the German culture (if it ain't broke, don't fix it). Newer methods, the so called 'modern ausbildung' techniques are slow to catch on here. I certainly had (and continue to have) difficulty finding trainers and helpers who share my 'modern' training methodology. I am sure I was/am regarded as an eccentric by many people here with my positive reinforcement training methods. People still cannot believe that I train with a clicker in one hand, food/ ball in the other, and an e-collar in the pocket - they just can't seem to make sense of it all. But, there are some really excellent trainers/training groups here, for example Jogi and Bart Bellon, Peter Scherk and Team Heuwinkel, who are very innovative and influencing the traditional training methodology. Things are slowly starting to evolve. Unfortunately, there are not really any strong clubs/training groups when it comes to Dobermanns - often times it seems the dogs succeed despite their training
I would love to see a 'modern' training group devoted to Dobermanns form - these training methods are perfect for Dobermanns, and combined with safe, knowledgeable helper work, the breed could really make advances.

Thank you Elaine. I would love to come for another visit and when it is financially feasible will do so.

It was extremely interesting to have Yogi and his trial helper, Speedy here at WCGSSC. I stayed long into the night listening to Yogi and Lance swap training theory and stories. Speedy said they were absolutely floored last summer to have a trainer like Lance, (in the hard tradition line of Reinhard Lindner, Elmer Mannes and Jurgen Ritzi) come to their club specifically to train and learn their system. Speedy, who if you have met him is not afraid to share his opinion said they rarely have any men who will take direction ;D. Actually much of the basic theory in obedience was really very similar. Protection not so much, LOL.

I agree that it does work well with Dobermann's. I will say however that though I train at a hardcore GSD club, I have never been steered wrong in terms of what to do with the Dobermann's I have worked. I for one, however think it is more about the temperament of the individual dog than about breed differences, but we all have different ideas and approaches.

[rosamburg]

Jan 6, 2012 1:55:58 GMT -5 dobimouse said:

hello together,

I carefully followed the statements of everybody. I didn't want to post, because of my bad English some of my thoughts coul be misunderstood. But I'll try it once again:
I think the biggest problem in the U.S. is: there are not enough training places and, very importantly, there are not enough really good helpers. IMO a good helper is a good helper, if he is able to build up puppies and young dogs to respond to the dogs, I mean, they can "read" the dogs. To work a good dog is no big deal, but to make dogs with problems successful, that requires considerable expertise.
In Germany you will find training places on each edge, but to find real good helpers is the big problem as well.
The working-Doberman in Germany is at its end. Only a handful of breeders are trying to take the strain upon himself to breed working dogs. Health is, however, absolutely in the foreground for these breeders. But the showline breeders have damaged a lot. They want a Doberman, which has the appearance of a mix between Great Dane and Rottweiler: big, wide, beautiful and health is not as important for them.
I noticed that a change/paradigm shift takes place in NA. I think you're on the right track, even if it does take a while until you have reached your goal.
I hope I have expressed myself understandable?

Ulrike

Good post Ulrike. From what I hear there are problems not only in the Dobermann but also with many GSD breeders. Too many I think go with the biggest name dog that is close to them. When talented trainers are able to cover up many deficiencies in a dog and turn a marginal dog into a remote control robot, combined with many judges (not to mention breeders) who cannot sufficiently read into the drive of dogs then too many soft dogs will be bred.

Another aspect that has not been explored much in this thread is the importance of breeders to match nerve and drive when selecting the dogs to be bred. If a breeder is just going with the dog who is a the latest "hot dog" then it is not necessarily the best choice. When a breeder just chooses a dog who was in the top 20 (regardless of breed) which is the closest to them (like right around the corner in Germany), then it is likely not the best choice. Two great dogs are not necessarily the best match. For example if you have two dogs who are on the sharp side but both very good dogs, you could easily end up with a lot of nervy dogs from the litter. If you have two very thick nerve dogs being bred it may be hard to get much out of the dogs from the litter.

Another issue I see is that there is some damn high breeding co-efficeints going on with some of the German working line breeders. In a situation with such a small gene pool this could spell disaster. A little more sophistication could go a long way.

With the severe health issues and limited choices of studs within the breed, allowing AI breeding of German studs would have the potential to greatly improve the breed world-wide. Of course the Dobermann Verein would have to pull its head out of its obsolete ass for this to happen.

In North America the biggest challenge in breeding programs is too few studs.

There are also too many trials where the trial is not much of a test in terms of fight/defense drive or ability to handle pressure (not to mention inflated scores from too many judges). With the Dobermann breed and the challenge to overcome nerve problems this is an added dilemma.

As Ulrike pointed out good training helpers are of course hard to find anywhere. It is amazing to see helpers come to our work week and have to be hammered on to learn not to blow young dogs out of the water. Too few helpers are serious about learning how to build a strong foundation for dogs. There are some people out there who could teach them but they have to open their minds to learn. Too many have too much of a macho mentality to accept the direction they need to improve. They should be camping out on the doorsteps of the few really great training helpers out there.

[octavian2]

Hi Ulrike, Translation is perfect! good post, you are a prime example of a working line doberman breeder doing their best to keep the lines alive! I know it is your passion and is frustrating at times but your goals and hard work do not go unnoticed as does your never ending support! Lisa

[cashmando1]

I do feel so very fortunate not to have to pay for our helper work. I pay club fees but that includes 2 days a week at club with a couple of helpers. We have a regulation size field, a beautiful heated clubhouse with bar, big screen t.v. and nice leather furniture.

I hope to god that we don't end up with a system like that here. This sport is expensive enough with traveling, and dog equipment etc. Right now I find it not to bad and considering it's my main hobby I think it's a pretty affordable one.