patrick
Titled Dobermann
Posts: 133
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Post by patrick on Jan 2, 2012 12:06:31 GMT -5
I agree that it's not the quantitie trainingtime that is important but the quality. IMO it's better to train 2 or 3 times a week in a correct way than to spent 7 days training in a way which sucks. Since the dog won't know the difference between good and bad training he'll only know one way and that's the way you teached him. So it's not the dog who should be blamed but the handler in such a case.
I think it all comes down to a persons individual goals. If you want to go high level you'll go out and find the best people you can find since it's your motivation. On the other hand if you just want to have some fun with your dog you'll be happy with the "lesser" which is great as well since you're giving you're dog a nice life. I have more respect for a person with a "lesser" dog who reaches his goal since he will be a better trainer then the guy who washes dogs on a yearly base. Just my opinion of course.
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 2, 2012 12:21:08 GMT -5
They both charge for their protection work and are well worth it!! What are you saying here in your post Steve? That if a helper/decoy or trainer charges for their time they have no "passion" for the sport? or they won't tell you what your dog is made of because of money? they used to do it for free but charge now for the physical demands or better yet they want to make a living doing something they love? or do you just want to let us know again how happy you are with your training situation? just trying to figure out what your saying here? I don't necessarily think it is bad in every situation. If someone is exceptionally good wants to charge for their services then more power to them. However, the situation has reached a point where in many cases people with little experience think they are "somebody" and can charge for their "work". When it reaches a point where this is the norm it hurts the sport. Also there is a huge difference between a good trial helper and a good training helper. The latter takes years of apprenticeship under a very good training director. Many people don't understand that just because a person is a decent trial helper, even at high levels, it does not necessarily make them a good training helper. I think it can absolutely create a slippery slope when the person that is being paid on a regular basis for bite work in training just happens to be the helper in the trial. It is just very easy for boundaries to become blurred. Don't get me wrong this can happen with amateurs as well but when money enters the picture it always has the potential to muddy the waters. |
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Post by octavian2 on Jan 2, 2012 18:30:16 GMT -5
"venomous" Because I think your opinion about the state of the working line dobermann faulters is not mine? so everytime I post here and it bothers you, or you need some kind of back-up you bring up a 1 time event about my dog in a negative way? when he was 17months old! I believe he was held back 3 months he did not "FAULTER" is that what you say. There was so much wrong with that event! we have moved on, but I still stand by what I said, the helper work that day was not the same for every dog. But in hindsight I walked away learning a lot about several things that had nothing to do with my dog! Now to your LC comment,I have never said anything about Lance Collins besides that is not how I want to train, I am not alone on this either I have talked to several sport people about it. I learned a lot at the work week! It was not a "humbling" experience in anyway. I was asked to bring Axel (12m) at the time down to the field with 4 suited helpers standing there one cracking a whip! he had just about zero OB or control in bite work at that age! for a young dog with lots of drive wow thats a lot to ask, so Lance did make a point that he lacked the foundation for bite work, well yeah for that! I totally agree and said so! funny though that your dog lacked just about any OB yet you did bite work. Did I feel a little set up in that situation,yes was it a good learning experience yes! I was told that "we do not see dobermanns like this very often" in fact I saw Connie and Nadia from your club trial a few weeks ago and she told me " you have a nice dobermann" so no Steve it was not "humbling" but a a chance to see a lot of dogs and I met some nice people. "I for one think you have a good dog who has lacked a handler who has done nothing to prepare him properly" Thanks Steve glad you think I have a good dog! and yes he is "a lot of dog" and we have come along way since you saw us at 12 months both of us  Before you start bad mouthing someones handling skills and dog take a good long hard look at your own, because what I saw of your skills 2 years ago a dog like Axel would be way to much dog for you I think you have set a prime example of what did you say "infighting,backstabbing and misdirected competitivness" I wish you much fun with your training and dogs Steve! Lisa Radcliffe |
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Post by rasmuscm on Jan 2, 2012 19:54:11 GMT -5
There are many things to consider. First, as someone pointed out, not that many even GET to high level competition, but when they do, I don't think we can say they falter.
What does it TAKE to get to high level competition?
1) good dog
2) great trainers and helpers (or BE a great trainer and/or helper)
3) a lifestyle which will allow you to train to get to this level
When you look at the high level GSD or Mali folks, look at their 1), 2) and 3).
Look at the folks who make it to competing at high levels - any breed - how many of them are professionals? I have asked over the years if there could be an Amateur trophy in addition to a HOT trophy -- for someone who does not receive any money for training dogs. Of those that compete, how many are amateurs?
It is important to realize that those who have full-time jobs other than training dogs are not necc going to be able to devote the time to training at levels that will get them to the podium. Or, the MONEY. MOST high level trainers get paid to help people get on the podium. Those folks who get on the podium - if they are not professional trainers themselves... chances are good they paid thousands of dollars to a professional trainer for help.
If you are a professional trainer, chances are good you will choose a dog other than a dobermann. There are many more GSD dogs to choose from, for less $. Malis are cheaper and more prevalent then dobes, too. Think of those dobermanns which have been handled by professionals - Dean Calderon, John Soares, Debbie Zappia - they were owned by someone else who had deep pockets. Butch Henderson is the only one I know who actually owned his dobermann.
When I was trialing Arras at the AWDFs (I trialed 3x at the AWDFs with Arras), the other folks who had dobermans trialing were Butch Henderson, John Soares, Lindsay Davis, Kathy Males, Jim Toman, Gail Dodd, Mary Chrusciel, Carole Bohanan, Ray Carlisle. Butch and John - both professionals. Lindsay, Kathy, Jim, Gail, Mary, Carole, Ray - either no kids, or kids out of the house. Jim, Ray and Kathy all worked with professional dog trainers regularly. Gail was extremely experienced and had trained with Gene England for years. I'm not sure who Mary, Carole or Lindsay were working with at that time. Me: twin boys, aged 2 the first time I competed, aged 5 the last time I competed, I had a full time job doing non-dog things, and I had no professional helping me on a weekly basis. I also don't/didn't have a husband who was into SchH, so it wasn't really a team effort there. I am/was a rare competitor at high levels, and I think that those who share my kind of lifestyle will have a very difficult time training/trailaing at high levels, so that cuts out a good percentage of people who own dobermanns.
So, I ask you to consider the number of working dobermanns in this country, the number of dobermann handlers with experience and have titled a dog at all in SchH before (because if they haven't, chances are pretty good they won't get to high levels), who have the lifestyle to be able to afford the time and money to compete, who have a good trainer and helper and facility to train at.... and then tell me how a paradigm shift is going to change all of this, regardless of the improving working ability of our breed.
Until we have experienced folks (with the lifestyle to train at a high level) choosing a dobermann over a GSD or Mali, we're not going to suddenly have greater number of successful dobermanns at high levels.
-Chris Rasmussen
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Post by octavian2 on Jan 2, 2012 20:59:01 GMT -5
Steve here is my last response to one of your comments! only because I feel it important to anyone new to any of the protection sports! "you had the opportunity to do that right at the moment, and plenty of people with tons of experience to do their best to help you" here is my advice.. DO NOT ever feel any pressure at any seminar you attend with your dog to let them "help" your dog or you if you feel like it is wrong for your dog!! no matter how accomplished they are or how many people are standing there watching!! I did it and I am glad for it. Part of being a good trainer is to keep your dog safe and keep the bond between you safe! go watch pick up all the training tools you like use them in your training remember what you don't like!! let people say or think what they want, you do not have to have a bunch of titles on a dog to know whats right for you and your dog. If you stay with it one day you and your dog will get where your going and have a bond like no other protection sports with a dog is a ton of work but just about the most fun thing on earth to do with your dog! and no Steve my dog is not damaged! far from it, now I will go back to just lurking on this forum!! |
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Post by cashmando1 on Jan 2, 2012 21:32:43 GMT -5
You wrote: 2. Why do our best dogs seem to falter at higher levels of all breed competition? What changes need to be implemented to improve things? I kinda read that question wrong when I first looked at it. Anyways I was wondering if you can elaborate a little on what specific competitions you are referring to? And are you talking here in N.A. or in Europe? And how and what phase were these dogs faltering? I'm just curious. This is a good topic and I hope to see some experienced people contribute. Thanks. It seems that the obedience is usually pretty good. It seems to me they fail the most at tracking (like all breeds) and then often show mediocre to dismal results in protection. I was thinking at all levels in North America, that a Dobermann could compete in... DVG Nationals, AWDF, Sch USA regionals. But I was also thinking of world level competitions in regards to dogs from Europe or the rest of the world. It is even rarer to see any Doberman's competing at any level much less a regional or National level in Canada. Prior to her retirement, Hara had just competed at the Canadian Western Regionals. I had sent the entry in for the Canadian Nationals and the USA Pacific Northwest regionals when she got sick. I also recall her being the only Dobermann to get a Sch title in something like a 3 year period in the GSSCC. Prior to that the last dog I remember competing was John Kowalczyk with Evita vom Dragonerriech (9th Place GSSCC Nationals). And we were both Americans who trained and also competed in Canada. I can think of a couple of dogs that I know of out my way. One just got his Schutzhund 3 last summer. And the other was from a few years ago, before I was in the sport. Apparently she was a pretty strong dog although only titled to a Sch. 1. There are a few up and coming and they are actually strong dogs, but other than that..nothing. And those dogs were only at club level. That brings me to my next comment like others have said. There are just so few handlers that work a Doberman. And on top of that, there are not a ton of Doberman handlers working strong working line dogs. I don't totally agree that people with full time jobs, kids, husbands, and wives can't get to higher levels. I mean you can't tell me that all the Shepherd handlers competing are all single, rich, and have no life?? lol! I'm sure it's a much tougher go, and probably would take longer. I think if you have dedication, people that support you, good training, and a good dog the sky is the limit!! Although a pot of gold would definitely help!! I hope this is the case at least because you have to have something to strive for. |
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Post by cashmando1 on Jan 2, 2012 23:54:11 GMT -5
Steve here is my last response to one of your comments! only because I feel it important to anyone new to any of the protection sports! "you had the opportunity to do that right at the moment, and plenty of people with tons of experience to do their best to help you" here is my advice.. DO NOT ever feel any pressure at any seminar you attend with your dog to let them "help" your dog or you if you feel like it is wrong for your dog!! no matter how accomplished they are or how many people are standing there watching!! I did it and I am glad for it. Part of being a good trainer is to keep your dog safe and keep the bond between you safe! go watch pick up all the training tools you like use them in your training remember what you don't like!! let people say or think what they want, you do not have to have a bunch of titles on a dog to know whats right for you and your dog. If you stay with it one day you and your dog will get where your going and have a bond like no other protection sports with a dog is a ton of work but just about the most fun thing on earth to do with your dog! and no Steve my dog is not damaged! far from it, now I will go back to just lurking on this forum!! I think this is great advice! I have had this drilled in my head by people I respect in the sport. And I think when your new you believe that people doing a seminar will work your dog like they would work there own. However that does not necessarily happen. Go to the seminar with maybe something small you want to work on. And as Lisa said if you feel at all uneasy stop and pull your dog. I always like to have a working spot but I do believe you can learn a ton just as a spectator. That way your dog is always safe. |
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Post by rasmuscm on Jan 3, 2012 7:11:10 GMT -5
A few more things.
Yes, the same lifestyle issues affect GSD and Mali people from attaining high levels of training and competition -- but that since the sheer number of those breeds training in SchH far outweigh the number of dobermanns, you obviously are going to see more people who have the lifestyle that can get them to national/world competitions with the other breeds.
Dobermanns are not great kennel dogs. People who have the lifestyle, and/or are professional dog trainers need dogs to be kennel dogs. Many of us pick dobermanns as our breed of choice for their personality, alertness, and lack of profusely shedding in the house -- many of us WANT them for house dogs.
Many trainers think that we are ruining our dogs for serious work BECAUSE they are house dogs. But, that's a whole 'nother thread.
Because of the mentality of our dobermanns - what makes them different than GSDs, in particular, is their genetic breed makeup. They are fundamentally terriers, not herding dogs. This inherently makes them more difficult to train than GSDs. Dobermanns have a different nerve structure. They are taking in a LOT more in their brains than a GSD. They notice everything, they remember everything. I can't remember which seminar giver it was who said 'I'll give anyone $5 right now if they can sneak up on a dobermann'. Please realize I am not making excuses for a dobermann - I am saying they are different, and that their differences need to be paid attention to and worked with. A trainer who wants to train all his dogs the same way is going to have to reach outside the box a bit and train a dobermann differently and not make mistakes...because the mistakes will be remembered by a dobermann.
Some will say that what I am describing is why the dobermann is not a contender for great working dogs. I say this is incorrect and that the problem is that people want the shortest route to success, and that if they have to modify their training brains to work with a dog who might be smarter than them, they're going to go with an easier breed, and a breed which is more available for less $.
Right now, at our UScA club, we have 7 dobermanns, 1 GSD and 1 Maili in training. All of those dobermanns come from completely different bloodlines/breeders and all of them will most likely get to at least a SchH I. They have many different personalities -- some are more sharp, some have a lot of defense, some have more prey, all have really good ball drive and all love the work. Which will end up at national competitions? Not sure - we are currently paying a helper who is local and very good, but I'm not sure who will take the extra effort and seek out the really high level training to get to that level. We shall see. But I think the fact that we have a really good mix of good working lines and dobermanns in our club says something about the progress of breeders over the past 20 years.
I have been in SchH since 1994 and have titled two to SchH III/IPO III, 1 to an FH, two to a SchH 1/IPO 1, with my current bitch training for her IPO II.
See you on the trial field.
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Post by anneconroy on Jan 3, 2012 12:05:33 GMT -5
Chris -- so agree with you on the fundemental temperment differences you mention.
To develop this -- the idea of prey is different to the doberman and a shepherd breed (GSD, mali) because of what the foundation dogs were selected for. That is Terrier (hunter-killer) vs Shepherd ) herder, protector.
When our Dobermans behave differently from what is expected by someone that has mostly or exclusively GSD or mali expereince - the doberman is required to conform in ways that might ultimately not be the best for their long term training.
Again, no excuses on final performance that is required -- however, how our dogs get there could be quite different in the details.
Of course, how trainers apply the knowledge availible on learning ought to be similar across all canines (higher mammals). What is the saying? The devil is in the details.
anne
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Post by Jag on Jan 3, 2012 23:23:54 GMT -5
I honestly think more people are coming to the breed more than ever before from a working standpoint. more people want dobes to work and there more and more GOOD dobermans here in the US- also a lot of up and coming dobermans as well.
unfortunately not everyone can pay to bring their dogs to a national or world level (especially in this economy)- it takes thousands of dollars to trial and campaign a dog, which a lot of people don't have. especially when these trials can be across the country and the world. I know I wouldn't be able to.
someone said before they could only see one dog competing at a world level- but there are quite a few dogs right now that I could see going... and although we might not see them going and competing at the nationals or worlds, we know they are good dogs/bitches and should use them for breeding regardless.
honestly, some of the best dogs for breeding stocks are not "point" dogs. they are strong, hard, and usually AREN'T the best dogs for competition. But they usually produce nice offspring because of their extreme characteristics.
I think a lot of people are over-analyzing the state of the dobermann. I honestly see the breed going in a better direction right now in north america.
I also think a lot of working dobermann people look at their dobermanns work and compare it to OTHER DOBERMANNS. we need to compare our dogs, and criticize them the way we would a GSD or mali. I was at a training weekend one time, and this dobermann kept coming off the sleeve and could not take the pressure of the stick. However, the other dobe people who were there kept making excuses for this dog. it drove me nuts!
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 4, 2012 1:58:45 GMT -5
unfortunately not everyone can pay to bring their dogs to a national or world level (especially in this economy)- it takes thousands of dollars to trial and campaign a dog, which a lot of people don't have. especially when these trials can be across the country and the world. I know I wouldn't be able to. I understand and know it could be difficult for myself as well. However there are at least Regional level events. someone said before they could only see one dog competing at a world level- but there are quite a few dogs right now that I could see going... and although we might not see them going and competing at the nationals or worlds, we know they are good dogs/bitches and should use them for breeding regardless. I wholeheartedly agree. To think there is only one dog in North America that could compete at the world level is nonsense. It is an insult to some people who are working hard and have decent dogs. I think it is also extremely over-rating the status of the competition level of Doberman's in Europe. I spent a little time visiting clubs and watching the level of training. I was surprised at what was really not very good training at some of the Dobermann clubs I visited. BTW this included some of the breeders that people here hold in very high esteem. Now in terms of competing at the world level in all breed competition. That is more of a stretch. honestly, some of the best dogs for breeding stocks are not "point" dogs. they are strong, hard, and usually AREN'T the best dogs for competition. But they usually produce nice offspring because of their extreme characteristics. We had this very conversation at the club tonight. The consensus of 2 members who had each competed at the WUSV 3 or more times was that they felt years ago this was true to the extent that it was difficult to get a level of compliance out of such dogs. Both felt that with the advance in training methods it was much more plausible today to get world class performance out of very hard, dominant and serious dogs. I also think a lot of working dobermann people look at their dobermanns work and compare it to OTHER DOBERMANNS. we need to compare our dogs, and criticize them the way we would a GSD or mali. I was at a training weekend one time, and this dobermann kept coming off the sleeve and could not take the pressure of the stick. However, the other dobe people who were there kept making excuses for this dog. it drove me nuts! I could not agree more with this statement. This is what I tried to outline in my initial post. We are selling ourselves short in many ways. Making excuses, blaming judges, blaming helpers, blaming circumstances is a major downfall. The very first thing that should be looked at is the training system, followed by our level of committment, and then if these factors are in place and we are still not having success then we should look at the quality of the dog. |
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 4, 2012 13:50:56 GMT -5
Before you start bad mouthing someones handling skills and dog take a good long hard look at your own, because what I saw of your skills 2 years ago a dog like Axel would be way to much dog for you. Steve, why not get yourself another breed of dog and stop drinking the koolaid? I never did bad mouth your dog (I actually defended him at the ZTP) All I said about your handling was that your dog was not prepared to move forward and you ignored advice to back up and fix his foundation. As far as back-stabbing, all I have done is point out some reality. I have not gone behind your back. Everything I have to say to you is absolutely directed at you. I found your behavior after the ZTP reprehensible. You still owe the helper a public apology. Good helpers are very hard to come by. Especially ones who do it completely out of a desire to be helpful with no monetary reward. The man may never agree to do a Dobermann trial again, after the way he was treated. As far as my handling skills I never claimed to be a great handler (though you are the last person I would listen to about anything in regards to dogs or the sport) and as far as why not get another breed??? Well...the first time someone asked me that was after I failed for the second time with Hara to get a Sch1 title. (Hara was my first dog in Schutzhund. She came from Euro show lines. She had good prey drive and thick nerve. However she was certainly lacking in power and aggression). The person just happened to be the judge himself, Jan Hrouda, (an old time Canadian judge). He actually took me aside after the trial and shared with me his experience getting into the sport with a Giant Schnauzer and how he made the decision to move onto a GSD. He tried to convince me to switch breeds. He was not the only one who made similar suggestions. At that point I decided to continue to trust the system I was in and my mentors and to work a little harder. The next trial we entered was the Canadian Western Regional championships. There were over 20 GSD's entered and a not so easy Austrian SV judge. We passed tracking and got 90-88 in phase B and C. The judge made a comment that she handled pressure very well. When we passed the Sch2 under Johanne Grewe he said I had better work on tracking or we would never pass a Sch3 trial. It was humbling to hear him to say that in front of bunch of people. I could have made excuses but I took his constructive criticism to heart. I spent some time tracking with Lance, and for the next 4 months went tracking nearly every day. In the next 7 trials the lowest score we ever got was an 80 under Doug Deacon, in a regional championship. We scored a 93 under Mike West in a snow blizzard. Hara found all of her articles, no other dog (all GSD's) found a single article. We failed protection the first time we tried for a Sch3 under Johannes Grewe. Again I could have said he did not give us much of a chance. Instead it was attend training more often, and trust the system. We first passed the Sch3 under Frank Mensing, we scored A88-B90 and passed in protection (though it was certainly not pretty).We ended up achieving 6 straight Sch3 titles (2 HIT) before Hara got sick. The highlight for me was trialing again under Jan Rouda at a West Coast trial. We got high tracking, high obedience a decent score in obedience to go high in trial. I agree I am not the greatest handler, but tell us Lisa, what exactly have you accomplished in Schutzhund? |
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Post by cashmando1 on Jan 4, 2012 15:49:11 GMT -5
I commend you for staying with a Doberman in a very competitive German Shepherd club Steve. So far you have stayed true to the breed.  I really hope this thread doesn't get too personal, I find it interesting the perspectives so far. |
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Post by octavian2 on Jan 4, 2012 16:23:36 GMT -5
Steve, I will not discuss the ZTP here with you I realize the helper is your friend and club helper. My reply was to your post about The currant state of the working dobermann and "why do our best dogs seem to falter at high levels of all breed competition" not the ZTP! or Lance Collins training. "it seems that the OB is usually pretty good, it seems to me they fail the most at tracking and often show mediocre to dismal results in protection" Thats not what the USA and DVG scores say! from what I see. And if that were the case look to the handler/trainers. I for one think dobermanns are very good trackers! my female is excelling in explosives detection and If we are in deed talking about working line dobermanns in this thread not euro/show lines protection is where they excel. I train with Mali's and GSD's and anyone who compares their dog to their own breed only does not know much about dogs! period. As far as you bad mouthing me and my dog I have heard plenty and not in a private mail from you and I know very few dobermann people! I have got some nice private emails that others share my opinions too. But I think the working line dobermanns are doing just fine world wide!
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Post by Elaine on Jan 4, 2012 16:38:34 GMT -5
Hey Steve - Great topic and interesting posts to start the New Year! I've been training and trialing Dobermanns in SchH/IPO/VPG for over 30 years (started as a child ) and have titled dogs from American show lines, American 'working' lines (Shady Acres), European show lines, and European working lines. Can't comment knowledgeably on the 'state of the breed' in North America, as I have been mostly in Germany since the late 1990's. I really agree with the posts from Chris and Anne, pointing out the inherent differences in the character and temperament of the Dobermann - most of us live and work our dogs in a GSD or Mali dominated world, and we need to accept that a Dobermann is not a GSD and should not be expected to train like one. (highlighting the value of this Forum!) You might note that the powerhouse clubs producing the top BSP and DMC winners in Germany have a training system and a high level of cohesiveness - something that seems to be lacking for the Dobermann (Lucky for you Steve - you have WCGSSC) Another topic that should be addressed are the physical/ structural differences - take a look at the silhouette of the GSD and the Mali (by the way, the old GSD's looked just like todays Malinois) and compare that to the Dobermann. In general, our breed is much taller, has a very different center of gravity, a much longer, arched neck which is set into the shoulder at a different angle, a smaller head in proportion to the body, a flatter croup and a higher tail set. It has been my experience that Dobermanns are more often and more severely injured during training for working dog sports - specifically neck and back injuries. I have also noted an increase in injuries in my own dogs, and other sport friends dogs, since the rules for the courage test were changed. I ask my helper to train my dogs to slow down on the long bite - I personally am not willing to take the risk of an injury to my dog for a (possible) point deduction or 'oohs' and 'ahhs' from the crowd. You might want to compare the average age of Dobermanns entered in Meisterschaft level trials - you may be shocked at the dropoff at age 5-6; an age at which other breeds are hitting their prime. My last comment regards club vs. regional/national/international level competition. I do not think titles should be 'given away' - all dogs receiving a title should show a stable character and the minimal performance necessary to pass. This is a difficult, time consuming sport - we need to be careful not to make it too difficult, thereby allowing more people to participate and allowing the sport to grow. At the same time, I do think there should be a difference in the level of the judging and the amount of pressure put on the dogs as one climbs the ranks. To believe a 'V' performance at a home club trial with a club helper can be compared to a regional or higher level event is just silly. And if you are looking for a puppy for sport, look for parents and grandparents that have performed well consistently at national or international level competition - you can't beat good breeding. |
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Before you start bad mouthing someones handling skills and dog take a good long hard look at your own, because what I saw of your skills 2 years ago a dog like Axel would be way to much dog for you 
