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Post by rosamburg on Dec 29, 2011 16:32:54 GMT -5
After a reading a lot of forum information recently and a few conversations with people I respect in the breed I decided to start a thread hopefully to stimulate conversation. While much of this has been hashed out before, I for one think that the dialogue needs to continue. It is also for the benefit of people relatively new to protections sports. The following questions are things that have occupied my mind lately.
1. What is the current state of the breed in regards to working ability? In Europe and in North America?
2. Why do our best dogs seem to falter at higher levels of all breed competition? What changes need to be implemented to improve things?
I cannot speak much in regards to this in Europe because I have never attended a trial in Europe and it has been a few years since I have visited clubs there. I have watched some video that left me with mixed feelings. In my opinion some good stuff but a lot that does not leave me with a much hope or inspiration.
As far as North America I see a few flashes of hope now and then but too much infighting, individualism, backstabbing and misdirected competitiveness. The working Dobermann gene pool is far too small in North America for the environment to thrive unless people stop engaging in negative behavior, forgive past grievances and start working together.
I cannot speak to other protection sports, but as far as Schutzhund I believe there is a need for a major paradigm shift in how business is run in terms of training and trialing. We need to do this for us to understand exactly what we are dealing with in terms of quality of dogs.
Training:
I consider myself to be a very mediocre handler. Therefore it is important for me to work hard, try to get the best help I can and to work with the best dog I can. Personally, I choose to attempt to continually improve my training techniques and timing, reading my dog, and overall increasing my understanding of the training system I am in. Fortunately I have been able to receive excellent direction from people whose sole motivation is passion for the sport and their chosen breed (in most cases the German Shepherd Dog). I am lucky to have been able to train with people who have achieved excellent results at some of the highest levels. Anything I know is from sponging off of these mentors. One thing I also have noticed about my mentors is that they do the same thing, just at a different level. In the past few years they noticed that some aspects in training have repeatedly fallen a bit short at the highest level of competition (World Championship). This was especially true in the obedience phase and in a few areas of obedience in protection. The solution was to seek help from people who have repeatedly and recently had success at this level. Because of this we brought in Yogi Zank, who along with members of his small club consistently and repeatedly have had great success at the highest levels (three top 2 finishes in the last 2 years at the Bundeseiger). What was interesting to me was at the social time after the seminars late into the night, was that Yogi does exactly the same thing. Both he and my TD said that they would not do books or DVD's because in 3 to 5 years too much would probably have changed. Another thing that interested me was that in every aspect of protection work, Yogi was in my TD’s back pocket the whole time.
It seems to me that many people in the Dobermann world in North America put trainers on pedestals, even if these trainers have never consistently (repeatedly and with more than one dog) accomplished much at the highest levels of competition. To me this is a set up for failure in regards to establishing a dependable system or methodology. To top it off if the person put on the pedestal is a professional they have a vested interest in making the dog look good, not necessarily making the dog prepared for handling pressure at the highest levels of competition.
Trialing:
In almost every instant, at least whenever possible, my club brings the best (excellent ability to read dogs, and consistently score performances) and most difficult judges in for club trials. In addition the helpers are expected to bring about the same level of pressure as one would expect at a national or world level competition. The reason is that it better prepares the dog and handler for high levels of competition and allows us to see exactly where the dog is at in terms of their understanding of the exercises and their ability to handle pressure.
On the other hand, it seems to me that many clubs bring in judges who are mediocre at best (marginal ability to read dogs, and to consistently score performance) who are very easy in their scoring. If you have been around the sport for very long you know who these judges are. In addition in many trials the helper work is weak sauce. This practice is not limited to any breed, there are many GSD clubs who do this. When you combine weak sauce helper work with crappy judging it can be nearly impossible to tell the difference in the quality of performance between very good dogs and marginal dogs. In the end this fails us in terms of bettering the breed because it is too easy to naively believe that the dogs are fantastic, the training is adequate and all is good. Then when we get to a major competition we are set up to fail because the dog is not prepared to handle pressure and the judging is much more realistic than what the handler is used to.
The choice is ours which paradigm we choose when selecting judges to bring in or choosing which trials to enter. If we choose the more difficult road we are then forced to choose the best dogs, improve our training, and to better prepare our dogs for trials. In addition we may subject ourselves to less than impressive scores. The other choice is to choose the easy route and then when we fail to achieve success at higher levels then to blame the helper, the judge or circumstances.
When looking at quality of performance I would take a high G score under an excellent judge with a strong helper, as opposed to an excellent score under a crappy judge and weak helper work any day of the week.
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patrick
Titled Dobermann
Posts: 133
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Post by patrick on Dec 29, 2011 20:23:45 GMT -5
One of the best posts I've EVER read on a forum Steve no shit!!!!
State of breeding: I think the current status of the dobermann as a workingdog ain't that bad in general apart from the healthissues going on at the moment. If one does some researching on the right lines (and i know you do) you still can find a descent dog. To find descent dobermannpeople that's quit another issue. I guess it's the same everywhere where one breeder has always something to say about another one and hardly something good.
About the level of trails I think that most handlers who got above average results at a descent level switch a lot if not in most cases to another breed like the mall or the GSD. I know quit a lot of people who started out with dobes but after getting some results they switched to the other more popular workingbreeds since they tought it would go easier. Now imo every dog is different and every dog should be trained.
Then like you say you have the trailers who go searching the intrabreedtrails with judges which are never asked at the bigger or all-breed trails or get an orgasm by succeeding in a BH. Now don't get me wrong I think it's great people are actually doing somethig with their dog and as long as it keeps them happy i'm happy as well. The problem is i think since most of the time these dogs are promoted in such a way that people are going to use them to breed and promote them as workingchampions. So it's not hard to understand that in a lot of cases the "therm" workingdog should be taken lightly.
I totally agree that in a lot of cases dvd and books are maybe good for the publisher's bankaccount but won't make you any better in training a dog yourself. I think the most important thing is to surround you with the best people you can find with a good helper (which seems to get rare these days) and learn from the right people. I think seminars can be usefull in some cases like you said with Yogi Zanker or some other people who proved something and know what they are talking about but it's still the person itself who has to train the dog. Each person's character etc. plays a part in that as well imo everybody is different.
I agree that it is better getting 260 at a REAL trail then let's say 295 under a judge who acts like santaclaus and a helper which is "keeping" every dog on his arm. Unfortunatly most of those people have the biggest mouth or are the experts on the forums and even more pathitic people believe them.
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Post by John K. on Dec 30, 2011 17:57:55 GMT -5
Great thread....excellent initial post Steve as well as excellent reply by Patrick....not sure anything else needs to be added as you guys pretty covered everything....will be interesting to see what kind of responses this thread generates, if any at all.
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Post by landgraf on Dec 30, 2011 23:33:46 GMT -5
I have to agree with alot of what was said as well. I think it is very important to show dogs in different venue's and also under different judges and helpers to get a truthful oppinion of one's dog. I like to see a dog that can perform underpressure and not crack under the pressures of training. So many many dogs look great at practice but their nerves crumble come trial time. Or dogs that look great in protection but if any pressure is put on in Obediance or tracking the dog falls to pieces.
Yes it is unfortunate that people listen to those that spout their rhetoric about what a great dog one animal may be and onother is crap when all they do is armchair quarterback and aren't out their actually trialing their dogs. But then I guess it's safer on the sidlines for those that do.
I train relentless with my dogs and constantly struggle with the fact the weekenders go out there and trial and the judges gives points away and I know I am not alone on this.
The only way we can continue to fix these issues is to continue to trian, trial and compete with our dogs.
I guess I feel lucky as well to trained with some of the best handler and helpers in the world. It sure makes a difference on one's expectations. I am lucky to get to train with 7 people who have been to world championships and even work my dog on a helper that has done helperwork for WUSV so no bullshit is allowed. If your dog can't cut it get rid of it or get a new dog no ifs ands or buts thats their motto.
Hope to see you all on the trial field.
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Post by octavian2 on Dec 31, 2011 3:56:37 GMT -5
"why do our best dogs seem to falter at the highest levels of all breed competition?" What all breed competitions are you talking about Steve? How many dobermann's do you know participating at this level? not many I know of if you do the numbers more GSD's falter at high levels. Are you sure you are talking about a breed that indeed falters? "Training" has many challenges great Steve that you feel fortunate in your situation! any dog/handler team that makes it to high level all breed events has excellent helpers, supportive club members and a big pot of gold helps to pay those helpers to put all that pressure on the good dog you'll have to have! again I am not convinced of your opinion that it's the breed that falters. "we need to do this for us to understand exactly what we are dealing with in terms of quality of dogs" do what?? The only way imo to judge the quality of a dog is to know the dog, see the dog train/work and know the lines and what they bring! Trial scores and video are part of that too but to many variables as you have pointed out! If the working line dobermann's in NA are going to "thrive" as you say it will have nothing to do with "people engaging in negative behaviors" what ever that means? it will be because people are interested in working/training a dobermann, seek out the best dog they can, after that the proof is in the pudding! There have been some interesting litters in NA the past few years and thats a good start but imo your post seems more about IPO regardless of the breed and good luck changing that  |
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Post by cashmando1 on Dec 31, 2011 10:23:21 GMT -5
My thoughts in bold.
I'm sure as a fairly new person in the sport my opinion does not hold much water, however you got it anyway! ;D
After a reading a lot of forum information recently and a few conversations with people I respect in the breed I decided to start a thread hopefully to stimulate conversation. While much of this has been hashed out before, I for one think that the dialogue needs to continue. It is also for the benefit of people relatively new to protections sports. The following questions are things that have occupied my mind lately. 1. What is the current state of the breed in regards to working ability? In Europe and in North America? Really haven't seen enough Dobermans out their trialing to say much. Although what I have seen for the most part disappoints me. It seems so rare to find a good strong dog.  I am of course putting the fact aside that people are out trialing and training their dogs. This is purely looking at the dog and although I think some dogs could be much better with a stronger handler. I do think it's obvious when you see a weak dog. 2. Why do our best dogs seem to falter at higher levels of all breed competition? What changes need to be implemented to improve things? This is only an observation and of course from a newbie to the sport. I could be totally wrong. But I see people in training with a ton of tools (crutches) call them what you want. E-collars, prong collars, harnesses, long lines..etc. They are never off the dog, until trial time. Personally I think if your dog isn't going to work for you in practice without all the tools, why in the world would he do it at a high level trial? Or any trial for that case? I use these tools also but I try and mix things up. I'm sure there is more to it than that, however like I said it's just something I have observed at my club and others.I cannot speak much in regards to this in Europe because I have never attended a trial in Europe and it has been a few years since I have visited clubs there. I have watched some video that left me with mixed feelings. In my opinion some good stuff but a lot that does not leave me with a much hope or inspiration. As far as North America I see a few flashes of hope now and then but too much infighting, individualism, backstabbing and misdirected competitiveness. The working Dobermann gene pool is far too small in North America for the environment to thrive unless people stop engaging in negative behavior, forgive past grievances and start working together. I agree Steve but I don't think you will ever get rid of the competitiveness between individuals and breeders. It's just human nature. And I think it's the same with Shepherd people although I find Doberman people are much more sensitive to what others say about their dogs. I find sometimes I'm even guilty of this, I have to keep it in check sometimes. But when I first started in this sport not to long ago I could not believe the crap that went on! I felt like I was back in high school. So yeah a huge improvement is needed overall.
I cannot speak to other protection sports, but as far as Schutzhund I believe there is a need for a major paradigm shift in how business is run in terms of training and trialing. We need to do this for us to understand exactly what we are dealing with in terms of quality of dogs. Training: I consider myself to be a very mediocre handler. Therefore it is important for me to work hard, try to get the best help I can and to work with the best dog I can. Personally, I choose to attempt to continually improve my training techniques and timing, reading my dog, and overall increasing my understanding of the training system I am in. Fortunately I have been able to receive excellent direction from people whose sole motivation is passion for the sport and their chosen breed (in most cases the German Shepherd Dog). I am lucky to have been able to train with people who have achieved excellent results at some of the highest levels. Anything I know is from sponging off of these mentors. One thing I also have noticed about my mentors is that they do the same thing, just at a different level. In the past few years they noticed that some aspects in training have repeatedly fallen a bit short at the highest level of competition (World Championship). This was especially true in the obedience phase and in a few areas of obedience in protection. The solution was to seek help from people who have repeatedly and recently had success at this level. Because of this we brought in Yogi Zank, who along with members of his small club consistently and repeatedly have had great success at the highest levels (three top 2 finishes in the last 2 years at the Bundeseiger). What was interesting to me was at the social time after the seminars late into the night, was that Yogi does exactly the same thing. Both he and my TD said that they would not do books or DVD's because in 3 to 5 years too much would probably have changed. Another thing that interested me was that in every aspect of protection work, Yogi was in my TD’s back pocket the whole time. I'd be curious to know what Yogi's opinion is on why he thinks things fall apart at higher levels. Please share it with us.
This brings me to my next point, I don't feel there is anything wrong with putting out a DVD and then having to put out another a few years later because training has evolved. Not everyone can travel around the world to train with experts in the sport. And we all know that attending one or two seminars although has great value, tends to leave huge gaps in training philosophies and leaves people looking for and wanting more guidance. While it is true that nothing compares to the person being there, DVD's are a great way to get one started in some of the techniques. I find people who have very limited access to good trainers have got a very good start by watching training video's. I bet you to that many of what we would call excellent trainers out there today have watched some training video's at one time or another. I don't think there is anything wrong if people want to learn say Lance's techniques yet they are clear across the world in Japan!
It seems to me that many people in the Dobermann world in North America put trainers on pedestals, even if these trainers have never consistently (repeatedly and with more than one dog) accomplished much at the highest levels of competition. To me this is a set up for failure in regards to establishing a dependable system or methodology. To top it off if the person put on the pedestal is a professional they have a vested interest in making the dog look good, not necessarily making the dog prepared for handling pressure at the highest levels of competition. Again Steve, not everyone has access to great trainers or a good program for training. And I definitely don't think this is limited to the Doberman world obviously.
Honestly there are so few people competing with Dobermans at ANY level that the ones that do well competing really stand out. So I don't know if people are doing the pedestal thing or more clinging to good trainers and good dogs within the breed because there are so few of them. I hope I am making sense here?
I think everyone at one time or another puts trainers up on pedestal's, surely you are guilty of this to no?
For the most part I don't think there is anything wrong with having admiration for someone's training and philosophies. But I think people have to be careful including myself that they see the big picture. Personally I have learned from many people in the sport irregardless of my training methods.
Trialing: In almost every instant, at least whenever possible, my club brings the best (excellent ability to read dogs, and consistently score performances) and most difficult judges in for club trials. In addition the helpers are expected to bring about the same level of pressure as one would expect at a national or world level competition. The reason is that it better prepares the dog and handler for high levels of competition and allows us to see exactly where the dog is at in terms of their understanding of the exercises and their ability to handle pressure. On the other hand, it seems to me that many clubs bring in judges who are mediocre at best (marginal ability to read dogs, and to consistently score performance) who are very easy in their scoring. If you have been around the sport for very long you know who these judges are. In addition in many trials the helper work is weak sauce. This practice is not limited to any breed, there are many GSD clubs who do this. When you combine weak sauce helper work with crappy judging it can be nearly impossible to tell the difference in the quality of performance between very good dogs and marginal dogs. In the end this fails us in terms of bettering the breed because it is too easy to naively believe that the dogs are fantastic, the training is adequate and all is good. Then when we get to a major competition we are set up to fail because the dog is not prepared to handle pressure and the judging is much more realistic than what the handler is used to. You are lucky in that regard Steve, cause as a total novice to the sport I even see some questionable judging. Watching teams scoring high when honestly they should have possibly even failed!!
There were a couple of clubs out this way that brought in tougher judges last year. But I do find the majority don't and it seems kinda obvious to me watching even though I don't have years of experience. As I am getting ready to trial I am thinking it might be hard to choose where to enter up here. I do think timing plays a big role, weather and of course distance. So that limits things even more.
I might get chastised for this but in my opinion when people have something to gain by trialing their dog for an example a breeder. Or a club that has something to prove, then your going to have judges that I call. "feel good" judges. I mean really if you as a breeder only have a mediocre dog that your trying to push, why would you trial under a tough judge? I have watched dogs trial and thought to myself not a very strong dog, but the judge gave a very decent score. The next thing I hear is the dog is being bred.  I wish I could question these judges and ask what they are seeing, because listening to the critique I often think were we watching the same thing?
The choice is ours which paradigm we choose when selecting judges to bring in or choosing which trials to enter. If we choose the more difficult road we are then forced to choose the best dogs, improve our training, and to better prepare our dogs for trials. In addition we may subject ourselves to less than impressive scores. The other choice is to choose the easy route and then when we fail to achieve success at higher levels then to blame the helper, the judge or circumstances. When looking at quality of performance I would take a high G score under an excellent judge with a strong helper, as opposed to an excellent score under a crappy judge and weak helper work any day of the week.
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Post by cashmando1 on Dec 31, 2011 14:50:19 GMT -5
I have a couple of questions for you Steve,
You wrote: 2. Why do our best dogs seem to falter at higher levels of all breed competition? What changes need to be implemented to improve things?
I kinda read that question wrong when I first looked at it. Anyways I was wondering if you can elaborate a little on what specific competitions you are referring to? And are you talking here in N.A. or in Europe? And how and what phase were these dogs faltering? I'm just curious. This is a good topic and I hope to see some experienced people contribute.
Thanks.
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 1, 2012 23:14:02 GMT -5
"why do our best dogs seem to falter at the highest levels of all breed competition?" What all breed competitions are you talking about Steve? How many dobermann's do you know participating at this level? not many I know of if you do the numbers more GSD's falter at high levels. Are you sure you are talking about a breed that indeed falters? "Training" has many challenges great Steve that you feel fortunate in your situation! any dog/handler team that makes it to high level all breed events has excellent helpers, supportive club members and a big pot of gold helps to pay those helpers to put all that pressure on the good dog you'll have to have! again I am not convinced of your opinion that it's the breed that falters. "we need to do this for us to understand exactly what we are dealing with in terms of quality of dogs" do what?? The only way imo to judge the quality of a dog is to know the dog, see the dog train/work and know the lines and what they bring! Trial scores and video are part of that too but to many variables as you have pointed out! If the working line dobermann's in NA are going to "thrive" as you say it will have nothing to do with "people engaging in negative behaviors" what ever that means? it will be because people are interested in working/training a dobermann, seek out the best dog they can, after that the proof is in the pudding! There have been some interesting litters in NA the past few years and thats a good start but imo your post seems more about IPO regardless of the breed and good luck changing that Welcome to the forum. We love to have new folks contributing to the forum. Please take the time to introduce yourself and share some of your background with us. As far as the questions you raise, you are right, there really are not many Dobermann's, at least in North America that compete at higher levels. I would say this in and of itself is a major faltering of the breed. The last dog to have any real success in all breed competitions in North America was Agir and that has been what, 6 years ago? As far as at a world level, there are not many that even compete, let alone excel at high levels. More evidence of a faltering of the breed. With so few dogs in a large continent, I don't think it is realistic for most people to have the opportunity to see working Dobermann's trialing, much less training. From video it is pretty difficult to really get a sense of what a dog brings. This is especially true when you take into account some of the weak helper work that is exhibited on trial video. This is evidenced by a general lack of presence, and at times extensive prey movements prior to attacks in exercises that are supposed to demonstrate how well the dog will handle direct attacks and pressure (popping the sleeve prior to raising of the stick, stopping forward movement in attacks out of the back transport and courage tests and then even adding sideways movement prior to "presenting" sleeves. A lot of the time the helpers are literally stuffing the sleeve in the dogs mouth. This all helps to cloud the view of the quality of the dogs. This makes it much more difficult to make solid breeding choices based on matching dogs in regards to drive and nerve. |
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 1, 2012 23:41:08 GMT -5
My thoughts in bold.
I'm sure as a fairly new person in the sport my opinion does not hold much water, however you got it anyway! ;D
. I'd be curious to know what Yogi's opinion is on why he thinks things fall apart at higher levels. Please share it with us. I don't recall him speaking directly to that, other than that they personally train and prepare obsessively and pay what many would probably consider a ridiculous amount of attention to fine details. I do recall him saying that it is relatively rare to find people open to new ways of doing things and also he spoke to seeing a lack of an effective and cohesive system in many training environments. He did share with us some of his approaches to dealing with trial-wise dogs. I am not going to share that. He shared some things he apparently does not usually share at seminars. Should have come to the seminar. This brings me to my next point, I don't feel there is anything wrong with putting out a DVD and then having to put out another a few years later because training has evolved. Not everyone can travel around the world to train with experts in the sport. And we all know that attending one or two seminars although has great value, tends to leave huge gaps in training philosophies and leaves people looking for and wanting more guidance. While it is true that nothing compares to the person being there, DVD's are a great way to get one started in some of the techniques. I find people who have very limited access to good trainers have got a very good start by watching training video's. I bet you to that many of what we would call excellent trainers out there today have watched some training video's at one time or another. I don't think there is anything wrong if people want to learn say Lance's techniques yet they are clear across the world in Japan! I agree I for one would like for these folks information to be out there. The main point that they were talking about was that too much would have changed.
I think everyone at one time or another puts trainers up on pedestal's, surely you are guilty of this to no? For the most part I don't think there is anything wrong with having admiration for someone's training and philosophies. But I think people have to be careful including myself that they see the big picture. Personally I have learned from many people in the sport irregardless of my training methods. I don't know if I put people on a pedestal so much as their abilities and knowledge. I also make sure that the people I try to emulate in terms of their knowledge and ability actually have the ability to walk their talk. I don't think this is always the case. |
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 1, 2012 23:53:22 GMT -5
great Steve that you feel fortunate in your situation! any dog/handler team that makes it to high level all breed events has excellent helpers, supportive club members and a big pot of gold helps to pay those helpers to put all that pressure on the good dog you'll have to have!) I am an American who chooses to train with the Canadians. If the helper gave your dog 15 bites in a day you might buy them a beer at the end of training. They would consider it an insult to try to give them anything else. There is absolutely no incentive to do anything but help your dog get better and not necessarily to look good. The helpers are there because they are passionate about the sport. The internal satisfaction they achieve, and perhaps the thank you and the beer at the end of training is their reward. To me this is damn refreshing! |
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 2, 2012 0:24:59 GMT -5
You wrote: 2. Why do our best dogs seem to falter at higher levels of all breed competition? What changes need to be implemented to improve things? I kinda read that question wrong when I first looked at it. Anyways I was wondering if you can elaborate a little on what specific competitions you are referring to? And are you talking here in N.A. or in Europe? And how and what phase were these dogs faltering? I'm just curious. This is a good topic and I hope to see some experienced people contribute. Thanks. It seems that the obedience is usually pretty good. It seems to me they fail the most at tracking (like all breeds) and then often show mediocre to dismal results in protection. I was thinking at all levels in North America, that a Dobermann could compete in... DVG Nationals, AWDF, Sch USA regionals. But I was also thinking of world level competitions in regards to dogs from Europe or the rest of the world. It is even rarer to see any Doberman's competing at any level much less a regional or National level in Canada. Prior to her retirement, Hara had just competed at the Canadian Western Regionals. I had sent the entry in for the Canadian Nationals and the USA Pacific Northwest regionals when she got sick. I also recall her being the only Dobermann to get a Sch title in something like a 3 year period in the GSSCC. Prior to that the last dog I remember competing was John Kowalczyk with Evita vom Dragonerriech (9th Place GSSCC Nationals). And we were both Americans who trained and also competed in Canada. |
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Post by octavian2 on Jan 2, 2012 1:42:10 GMT -5
Thanks Steve, I have not posted here in a long while but I disagree very much with your post I thought I would post another opinion for "anyone new to protection sports" here is a list of working dobermann breeders that imo produce top stong candidates for anyone with some dog experience who is looking for "hope or inspiration" and a desire to train a good dog! 1) Von Der Burgstatte 2) Vom Scharzen Wachter (love Beretta) 3)Von Spellen 4)Vom Ferrenberg 5) Do Zarzallo 6) Vom Burgwald 7) Vom Eschenbruch 8) Kennel Ascomannis 9) Von Bolcanstern All these breeders train/trial and know their lines! and on and on! "more evidence of a faultering breed" your "evidence" does not cut it for me! Dobermanns never have been a dog for everyone and never will- You are right about NA though imo the only dog I know who could compete on a high level is Gamy Von Der Burgstatte nice dog good genetics, super handler/trainer and where did this dog come from? The dobermann will never be a competitor at high levels or even club levels in any large numbers because the desire is not the main stream. To say that the breed "faulters" is an insult to the working line breeders who keep the strong lines going. Steve why not get yourself another breed or stop drinking the koolaid, Lisa Radcliffe
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Post by octavian2 on Jan 2, 2012 2:16:29 GMT -5
I train with a DVG club and pay yearly dues the helper has PSA and FR experience also and it is a nice club of course I am the only one with a dobermann! I also trained for about a year and on and off still with a 8 time world competitor for helper work. I train about 1 Sunday a month with a french ring trainer/decoy They both charge for their protection work and are well worth it!! What are you saying here in your post Steve? That if a helper/decoy or trainer charges for their time they have no "passion" for the sport? or they won't tell you what your dog is made of because of money? they used to do it for free but charge now for the physical demands or better yet they want to make a living doing something they love? or do you just want to let us know again how happy you are with your training situation? just trying to figure out what your saying here?
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Post by octavian2 on Jan 2, 2012 3:17:11 GMT -5
"I train relentless with my dogs and constantly struggle with the fact that weekenders go out there and trial and the judge gives points away" What does this mean? People who train when they can and do sport with their dogs should not trial too? The judging is on the handler/dog team right? regardless. I guess that is what high level competition is for no weekenders! I have a ton of respect for anyone who trains and trials their dogs and even more so for the people who respect their dogs. I don't know any people who are "arm chair quarterbacks not actually trialing their dogs" everyone I know works to train their dogs to trial and if it's on a weekend why is that less than someone who trains 24/7? I have seen people with "good dogs" get more points too and wonder. I do not see how this can "be fixed"? but maybe I am reading your post all wrong and a "weekender means something else? just trying to understand here.
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 2, 2012 12:04:22 GMT -5
Thanks Steve, I have not posted here in a long while but I disagree very much with your post I thought I would post another opinion for "anyone new to protection sports Steve why not get yourself another breed or stop drinking the koolaid, Lisa Radcliffe Oh, it's you, Lisa. You are a prime example of what I am talking about. I try to take the high road but since you decided to get venomous I will state my opinion. It is humbling for any of us to find out that our dog does not know as much we think they do or that we have not prepared them as well as we thought. You just happened to have encountered a trainer, in Lance, who is only interested in teaching people where they are at with their dog and has absolutely no qualms about pointing it out. Actually he gave s#$t enough to take the time to be honest and try and work with you. Granted he does not always frame things in a way that gives people the warm and fuzzies. However, it was pointed out that your dog lacked the foundation necessary to proceed in training. At that point the choice was yours to back up and establish that foundation or not. You had the opportunity to do that right at that moment, and with plenty of people with tons of experience who would have done their level best to help you. You chose instead to disregard the advice. Unfortunately your dog has suffered the consequences. When he FALTERED at the ADA ZTP, instead of looking at your lack of preparation for the dog you instead tried to throw the helper under the bus. This is just another example of having an opportunity to grow and instead choosing a self-defeating and unsportsmanlike approach. Because of the results many people probably think your dog is lacking. I for one think you actually have a good dog who has lacked a handler who has done anything to prepare him properly. This is exactly the kind of scenario I outlined in the original post. |
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I am of course putting the fact aside that people are out trialing and training their dogs. This is purely looking at the dog and although I think some dogs could be much better with a stronger handler. I do think it's obvious when you see a weak dog. 
I wish I could question these judges and ask what they are seeing, because listening to the critique I often think were we watching the same thing?