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Post by sailorgirl on Jan 8, 2012 18:38:42 GMT -5
Hello!
My name is Alaina and I am new to Schutzhund. Getting a puppy pretty soon from Bruno and Cinder's litter. Brandi has been extremely helpful as well as Western Horizons Working Dog Club here in California. I also recently met John so I have quite a wealth of information as my disposal. I just wanted to look around as I am sure I will be needing help in the future and would like to soak up as much info as I can from all of you as well as dispense what I learn to others. I really want to kick butts in this sport and am super excited to get started. ;D
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Post by Jag on Jan 8, 2012 20:35:52 GMT -5
hello! yay, a new person working a doberman! you'll do great, just stick with it- and don't get down when the GSD people poke fun at you for having a dobe- they don't know what they are missing! we all hear i at some point!  be sure to update us with some pictures and video! |
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Post by dobermanman on Jan 8, 2012 23:03:53 GMT -5
Alaina
Are you getting a male or female?
I have a two year old female Winterfell Arya out of Bruno x Ascomannis Lexa. An all natural Dobergirl
training in Mondio Ring. Hopefully we'll do a Brevet in the Spring?
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Post by Sam LaRochelle on Jan 11, 2012 18:48:05 GMT -5
Welcome from New Hampshire! Good luck in Schutzhund, I am sure you will do great! I am training to do PSA with my Dobe. As Kara said, we Dobie people get a lot of stuff about working a Doberman from GSD and Belgian Malinois people.  I look forward to hearing about your pup when you get him/her and how your training is going.  |
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 12, 2012 0:11:20 GMT -5
Good luck, should be great puppies and future working dogs. Have fun along the way!
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Post by sailorgirl on Jan 13, 2012 0:37:27 GMT -5
Hello! I am getting a female as she had 9 females and 2 males. I have heard of the GSD people poking fun at Dobe handlers. I don't care, my dog will look better while she's working. Glad to hear from someone else who has a Bruno baby. What a dog!! After extensive research, I am so fortunate to have found Brandi and the great circle of people in this sport. I love Dobes and although I am scared because it is something new and you never want to make mistakes that may stunt the dogs mental growth, I am very excited to learn and be the best I can possibly be. Maybe one day I will be yacking away at a seminar or something. I have a pretty busy schedule right now but I will make the room and then devote myself totally as soon as my college courses are over. It should be about the time she is old enough to get really serious. I'd like to also get a male down the road. Not for breeding, just to have a pair and see the differences between them. Have I mentioned that I love Dobes?? Thanks for all the support! |
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Post by dobermanman on Jan 14, 2012 8:57:00 GMT -5
"I have a pretty busy schedule right now but I will make the room and then devote myself totally as soon as my college courses are over. It should be about the time she is old enough to get really serious."
Hi Alaina
I understand not having time for formal instruction while you're still in school BUT :-)
Don't miss the opportunity to "imprint" while your Dobergirl is still a puppy. Puppies are like little sponges. You can "teach" sits and down and recalls etc. using operant conditioning and shaping.
Check out the Michael Ells DVD's both the ones for sale and the freebies on the Leerburg site.
If your new girl is anything like Arya she'll have more then a little energy ;-)
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Post by sailorgirl on Jan 14, 2012 15:05:07 GMT -5
Hi! I am smiling like the Cheshire cat right now because I just watched his DVD last night about teaching protection without a decoy. HAHA! I have been going to a club near me and will start on all aspects of the work as soon as her shots are done. I meant I am not going to be able to be as involved in going to all the trials, seminars, etc. that I want to do until that time. I'm getting a great working puppy so we are going to WORK as soon as possible. Getting all my supplies in order right now. I have the puppy tugs, treat apron, harness, leash, ball on a stick.....going to get the 15 ft and 33 ft leads soon.....I bought some of her ear posting supplies.... trying to think of what else. Oh, and I am getting my dog first aid kit ready for the "just in case" scenarios. I will do all the work necessary to get her started and plan to work in about 10 minute increments 3 or 4 times a day so as not to tire her out or bore her and then as soon as I am done this time next year, she should be ready to getting a BH at least (God willing). I want to be so involved and learn so much so that I can be a good advocate for the sport, and I know that all comes with time and experience. If you or anyone have any advice for supplies I may still need or additional tips, I am more than open to them. But yes, I am going to give this little one as much of an early education as I can and I have a club all picked out:) They seem to be receptive to me, hopefully it all works out! ;D
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 14, 2012 16:45:50 GMT -5
Hi! I am smiling like the Cheshire cat right now because I just watched his DVD last night about teaching protection without a decoy. HAHA! ;D It is great that you have found what looks like a very small club that is open to working with you! You can do a lot of foundation prey/play work with a tug as a reward. For example we make the dog active (bark) to stimulate the movement of the handler and rewarding of the tug. This is a set up later for guarding exercises such as the bark and hold. However, in our system we would see it as a mistake to do our own decoy work on our own dog. I know many people do it very differently around the world but we do not introduce protection work until the dog is mature enough to handle it (12-14 months) and then protection is introduced as a defense exercise. The reason for this approach and especially for not doing one's own helper work, being that the dog is not working in the right drive. They would be working in prey drive completely as opposed to defense or fight drive. When this is the case it can make it impossible to get the dog to work in the right drive for the right situation, later. Of course a lot of judges are not good enough to tell the difference. Some trainers are so good at covering up and developing fake dogs that even some of the better judge's can have difficulty telling the difference. Some obvious examples of this would be a dog jumping high in the air on the bark and hold. High pitched barking in guarding phases, etc. Even more damaging to the quality of the work, though less obvious is a dog trained in such a manner is likely to bring less fight to the helper, less hindering in escapes, etc. Then again at too many Schutzhund clubs some tests have been bastardized to the point where it is all prey movement anyway even in situations where it is supposed to test the dogs courage as well as defense ability. It is obvious that you are very enthusiastic and this enthusiasm can take you a long way. However, it is best to get as much guidance as you can from the people at the club. Sometimes people can do too much on their own and do more harm than good. |
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Post by sailorgirl on Jan 14, 2012 18:43:16 GMT -5
That's good advice. Im very leary about doing any of that stuff by myself. The title caught my eye and I am so glad I watched it. I love the Balabanov series but Michael Ellis seems pretty good as well. This DVD has a little of everything in it. Many people also don't teach obedience until after protection. And others do mostly compulsion while I am more of a positive reinforcement fan. Its all good advice and I appreciate the feedback. I like to hear everyones methods so that I might incorporate a little from everyone here and there if needed. Thanks!
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Post by Jag on Jan 17, 2012 12:26:44 GMT -5
I have to thoroughly disagree with this. Many, many people train their own dogs. My husband has trained all of his dogs himself in French Ring, and I know a lot of decoys that do the same. However, you HAVE to know what you are doing!! Most dogs do understand the "different drives". There are many national and international dogs competing that were trained by their own handler, and are not "in prey", but are very serious dogs that have done extremely well.
Also, there a not a lot of people that wait so long to start bitework, I think it creates more confusion. We start working with puppies at 8 weeks with a rag, and get them on the suit as soon as they can bite it. Waiting until they are over a year is a very old school approach.
I don't understand why a high pitched bark or them jumping up at the helper would have anything to do with being a "fake dog". Although a lot of the time, a high pitched bark is associated with a dog being in "prey", some dogs just have higher pitched barks, even when they are older. Again, I've seen dogs with high pitched barks that were EXTREMELY serious dogs, that have also competed at world levels. I really think people over analyze a lot of these stupid details. I don't care how my dog barks, but how it acts and what it will do the helper/decoy under pressure.
Sailorgirl, there are many different views about training, as you can see. So I would just make sure you are comfortable with your club and how they are training. you know your dog better than anyone. Get recommendations about a club BEFORE you join it. A bad trainer can ruin/break a young dog.
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 17, 2012 15:29:15 GMT -5
I have to thoroughly disagree with this. Many, many people train their own dogs. My husband has trained all of his dogs himself in French Ring, and I know a lot of decoys that do the same. However, you HAVE to know what you are doing!! Most dogs do understand the "different drives". There are many national and international dogs competing that were trained by their own handler, and are not "in prey", but are very serious dogs that have done extremely well. Also, there a not a lot of people that wait so long to start bitework, I think it creates more confusion. We start working with puppies at 8 weeks with a rag, and get them on the suit as soon as they can bite it. Waiting until they are over a year is a very old school approach. I don't understand why a high pitched bark or them jumping up at the helper would have anything to do with being a "fake dog". Although a lot of the time, a high pitched bark is associated with a dog being in "prey", some dogs just have higher pitched barks, even when they are older. Again, I've seen dogs with high pitched barks that were EXTREMELY serious dogs, that have also competed at world levels. I really think people over analyze a lot of these stupid details. I don't care how my dog barks, but how it acts and what it will do the helper/decoy under pressure. Sailorgirl, there are many different views about training, as you can see. So I would just make sure you are comfortable with your club and how they are training. you know your dog better than anyone. Get recommendations about a club BEFORE you join it. A bad trainer can ruin/break a young dog. Until you have really seen the difference you could not know. It is kind of like describing a sexual experience to a nun. I am truly not trying to be a know it all. I am just trying to share my experience and what I witness on a regular basis. The truth Kara is that you have very limited experience. There are many people who obviously have much more extensive knowledge, experience and ability than I do as well. I try to gain as much as I can from them. I just happen to have the advantage of seeing many such dogs with such behavior come to our club (high pitched barking, taking and not striking the sleeve, etc. Once in a great while a dog who consistently displays high pitched barking just has that genetic make-up). The vast majority however are acting out of prey aggression. This is typical of dogs that club members import from Germany. It is typical of seeing many dogs that come to our annual work week. After a few days of being worked by Lance Collins and having their fight drive brought out and worked with, many of these dogs go through serious transformation. Their bark pitch changes and they go from taking the sleeve to striking the sleeve. They go from holding on to the sleeve of the helper to fighting and hindering the helper. Until you see that kind of transformation you just cannot know what I am describing. Of course some dogs have been so locked in prey and from such a young age that there is only so much that can be done. As far as French Ring I don't know much and am the first to say I do not know much. However, from what I see from the one seminar I attended, visting Vince Nulles club several times, and from video it looks like most of the exercises are based on prey attraction. The decoys do not appear to be trying to be as adversarial to the dog as they are sort of dancing with the dog. The helper being adversarial to the dog is how it is supposed to be in Schutzhund. Unfortunately far too many club and competitions have bastardized the test to the point where it is strictly a prey exercise. |
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Post by elucas on Jan 17, 2012 17:00:05 GMT -5
Steve, your club is the ONLY club I know of that still does things that way. I have been to numerous clubs and all of them start with young puppies. I agree that the wait until a year and then do it all in defense is the very old school way of doing things. Most don't go that route anymore. Also, the clubs I go to aren't just crap clubs either. They put people to the nationals and world competitions.
If you want to wait until a year and then start your dog, fine but I don't think that is the norm anymore.
Again, if you want to think that it is what is contributing to a downfall of the sport, fine. I don't think that is the problem.
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Post by Jag on Jan 17, 2012 17:23:55 GMT -5
hate to say it Steve, but you are coming across as a know it all in the last two threads you have posted in, and you really aren't making sense at all. yes, I have only been into bitesports for a couple years, but that doesn't mean I haven't trained and been around dogs my whole life. I have been very fortunate to travel to Europe and train with many national and world level decoys and trainers, including my husband. Who is the youngest decoy to do two championships in France and does seminars all over the world (don't tell him I'm bragging about him! ) Of course there are dogs that DO have that high pitched barking out of fear or just prey. I stated that in my original post. BUT to say that as a general statement about all dogs that DO bark like that, or DO jump in the helper's face is just ignorant and naiive. |
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Post by sailorgirl on Jan 17, 2012 23:25:19 GMT -5
Uh oh! Hate to have ignited a Sh*t storm between all of you:) I have heard a lot of different opinions about how early is too early for formal training other than the bite rag. I understand the calm hold stuff even though there are several methods I have seen to achieve this. The Leerburg approach is love and cuddles only with no correction during at least the first year (except if they do not OUT or COME when called after they know what you want). Then there's the pinch collar around 6-8 months school of thought, then there's the no-obedience-until-after-bitework- school. And I am not knocking ANY of them. I would like to use some from all of them. One thing I have not seen addressed from anyone besides Leerburg is (and I admit I have not read every book, searched the forum top to bottom or watched every video out there), is how do you OUT a puppy when the game really is over? Like if I have to leave or the puppy is showing signs of being tired but still holding the rag. I am not going to play till she falls over from exhaustion of course. I read how Ed Frawley likes to offer a second prey item or food, then the quick pinch behind the flank as the dog gets older, etc. Then Kraftwerks suggests blowing in the dog's ear to get it to OUT at first but when it's over he lets the puppy hold onto the rag as long as it wants, even to ride with in the crate on the way back home. I thought the name of the game was that the puppy should never get bored of the tug? The problem with watching and reading too much is that everyone has a different approach. Aye carumba!
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