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Post by Jag on Jan 18, 2012 8:45:12 GMT -5
I definitely would NEVER flank my dog to out. my dog would turn and bite me. not a smart move.
A second prey item is great, a tug or food! with really really young puppies, we just whistle or say their name for them to let go.
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Post by dobermanman on Jan 18, 2012 10:19:03 GMT -5
HI Alaina
There is no Leerburg training method per se. Ed Frawley produces DVD's, some real good, some not so good. The Michael Ellis series is probably the best and the most effective with Dobermanns. A few years ago Ed did a similar series with Bernhard Flinks that included flanking the dogs for outs. Flanking can work with big SLOW GSD's but I agree with Kara. I wouldn't try it with a Dobermann :-)
Another technique you're welcome to try (I don't use it :-)) Stick your index finger in the back of the dogs mouth and touch his tongue. He'll spit the sleeve, suit, tug
For a noob I'd stick with the Michael Ellis method. Plenty of DVD's and free videos on the Leerburg
website
Kara,
I got to audit part of Jimmy's Denver seminar on Saturday. He does real nice work
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Post by cashmando1 on Jan 18, 2012 13:59:23 GMT -5
There are a few clubs up my way that also wait till dogs are much older to go on the sleeve. If done correctly I don't think it's confusing at all to the dog. Honestly I wish more people waited, what's the big rush anyway? I always remember the dentist Cash saw saying that she wished more police and Schutzhund people waited until the enamel was completely formed. Waited till all the teeth were deeply seated into the mouth. And neither does not happen till after a year old. Lack of enamel can cause severely sensitive teeth which of course will cause a dog to not want to bite. I think in the system Steve works in the dog doesn't see a helper till after 12 months. But I know some clubs where the helper still works with the pup but the sleeve isn't introduced till much older. At all these clubs that I know of they all test the dogs to see if they are ready to work in defense. Personally I think that is wonderful because I don't think it should be forced on a young dog. And I know a couple of theses clubs are very progressive in their ways, not at all old school in other aspects of their training. I think there is more than one way to skin a cat though. I can tell you that Cash was put on the sleeve at 6 months of age and was fine for the most part. But then taken off the sleeve shortly after that and didn't go back on till over 10 months of age. Unfortunately at our club I think they think Dobermans are made of glass..lol! While they will never hurt Cash most everything is done in prey. I have seen glimpses of Cash working in defense and do find he is much more explosive in his work when in this drive. Hopefully things will change shortly. Anyways I understand both Steve's point and Kara's. It sometimes is very hard to see the drive they are working in. I sat with a well known helper at a trial when I first started in this sport and we watched each dog, him telling me which drive the dog was in and why. It was so very educational. And I would say the majority of dogs that day were working in the wrong drives. I have seen dogs trained both ways, on the sleeve early and on the sleeve after 12 months or whenever they are ready. There are dogs that were on the sleeve young that are pretty damn serious dogs. They strike hard, have a very strong bark and hold and are generally strong dogs overall. However I don't find they are the norm you might see one or two at a trial. I wonder if that is the reason...who knows. Steve as every dog at your club is generally trained that way, do all the dogs after a certain age work in the correct drives? If I came to a trial at your club and there were 10 dogs from your club trialing would they all work in the right drives in each exercise? IMO I think it can also be based on each individual dog, some are going to work naturally in the right drives regardless of when they are put on the sleeve. I also think it depends on the helper working your young dog. Some helpers work dogs all in prey, while others not so much. Just my 2 cents.  |
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 18, 2012 17:46:55 GMT -5
hate to say it Steve, but you are coming across as a know it all in the last two threads you have posted in, and you really aren't making sense at all. Sorry if it was over your head. yes, I have only been into bitesports for a couple years, but that doesn't mean I haven't trained and been around dogs my whole life. I have been very fortunate to travel to Europe and train with many national and world level decoys and trainers, including my husband. Who is the youngest decoy to do two championships in France and does seminars all over the world (don't tell him I'm bragging about him!  . From my limited exposure to FR it appears to be quite different in terms of expectations of the dog and what is called for than in Schutzhund. BTW Kara, what have you actually personally accomplished in bitesports? Not that someone new to bitesports cannot contribute to forums, but you are speaking as you are some sort of authority. I tried to explain that there are different approaches. I don't recall saying that our method is the only way one should train. Every approach has a consequence. By introducing and managing fight drive we perhaps take greater chances with points in certain instances, but it is impossible to ignore access to 50% more power. Having 6 handlers showing at the WUSV in the last 3 years (4 different individuals) shows there is some merit to the system. Having more than one dog go high in protection at the WUSV shows there is some merit to the system. Having at least one dog every year in the previous 3 years on the podium at the Canadian championships shows there is some merit to the approach. |
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 18, 2012 17:59:53 GMT -5
I think in the system Steve works in the dog doesn't see a helper till after 12 months. But I know some clubs where the helper still works with the pup but the sleeve isn't introduced till much older. At all these clubs that I know of they all test the dogs to see if they are ready to work in defense. Personally I think that is wonderful because I don't think it should be forced on a young dog. And I know a couple of theses clubs are very progressive in their ways, not at all old school in other aspects of their training. Steve as every dog at your club is generally trained that way, do all the dogs after a certain age work in the correct drives? If I came to a trial at your club and there were 10 dogs from your club trialing would they all work in the right drives in each exercise? I don't think that would be completely possible, though for the most part that is what you would see. Like everything it is a constant attempt to control the balance we see in the dog. If the dog starts going to be going into more prey then more conflict or defense may be introduced. The most obvious example of this in training is when the dog starts to focus on the sleeve more than the handler. If that is the case it points to bringing on more defense. The biggest factor that works against us are imported dogs that were introduced to the sleeve at younger age. WCGSSC in almost every instance has very good dogs.(the only exception would be new handlers who bring not so good dogs) A good portion of our members import the dogs as young dogs, 14-20 months. I will tell you that often this has created a dilemma. They have a good idea what the dog brings and don't waste a year on a puppy that will wash out, but often the dog brings foundation work that is at odds with our system and what we are trying to produce as a finished dog. |
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 18, 2012 18:18:18 GMT -5
Steve, your club is the ONLY club I know of that still does things that way. I have been to numerous clubs and all of them start with young puppies. I agree that the wait until a year and then do it all in defense is the very old school way of doing things. Most don't go that route anymore. Also, the clubs I go to aren't just crap clubs either. They put people to the nationals and world competitions. If you want to wait until a year and then start your dog, fine but I don't think that is the norm anymore. Again, if you want to think that it is what is contributing to a downfall of the sport, fine. I don't think that is the problem. Who said anything about doing everything in defense? That is idiotic. It is about balance. However, in our system the helper is introduced intially as a defense exercise. This does not usually even involve a bite during the first session or two. The bite is then introduced initially as a prey reward for a few sessions with a tug for showing appropriate defense drive, and then with a sleeve. It is an extremely controlled and careful process. The overall system is designed to develop a balance of drive. If the dog is one who is naturally in a lot of conflict and defense drive oriented then it would be worked more in prey in almost every situation. A very balanced dog would be worked in a balance of prey/defense/fight, a very thick nerved prey oriented dog would be worked more in defense, likely with a number of sessions of suit work. In addition prior to a year of age (from early puppyhood on) the handlers themselves are doing a ton of bite and prey foundation work with a back tie and a tug. It is the introduction of the helper after a year of age that introduces the dog to actual protection work. BTW Jurgen Ritzi's club adapted Lance's system several years ago. A handler from the Tangen club won the Bundeseiger the year before last so I would think that shows the system as a whole, does have some merit. |
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Post by cashmando1 on Jan 18, 2012 18:48:09 GMT -5
Uh oh! Hate to have ignited a Sh*t storm between all of you:) I have heard a lot of different opinions about how early is too early for formal training other than the bite rag. I understand the calm hold stuff even though there are several methods I have seen to achieve this. The Leerburg approach is love and cuddles only with no correction during at least the first year (except if they do not OUT or COME when called after they know what you want). Then there's the pinch collar around 6-8 months school of thought, then there's the no-obedience-until-after-bitework- school. And I am not knocking ANY of them. I would like to use some from all of them. One thing I have not seen addressed from anyone besides Leerburg is (and I admit I have not read every book, searched the forum top to bottom or watched every video out there), is how do you OUT a puppy when the game really is over? Like if I have to leave or the puppy is showing signs of being tired but still holding the rag. I am not going to play till she falls over from exhaustion of course. I read how Ed Frawley likes to offer a second prey item or food, then the quick pinch behind the flank as the dog gets older, etc. Then Kraftwerks suggests blowing in the dog's ear to get it to OUT at first but when it's over he lets the puppy hold onto the rag as long as it wants, even to ride with in the crate on the way back home. I thought the name of the game was that the puppy should never get bored of the tug? The problem with watching and reading too much is that everyone has a different approach. Aye carumba! Haha! Don't get to caught up in all that reading, you will drive yourself nuts! You will end up trying all kinds of stuff and not getting to far..lol! Just go to club, ask lot's of questions, watch and soak it all up. In my opinion you will learn lot's just being out on the field while others are working their dog. Pay attention instead of sitting on the side lines talking about the weather. You will have lot's of time to socialize after training. If your club doesn't have a system, find someone that has competed and done well on a regular basis. And lastly have fun. ;D Good luck with your pup! |
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Post by sailorgirl on Jan 19, 2012 0:12:45 GMT -5
I really appreciate everyone's help and passion about their training methods! We all have the same goal, to bring the "work" back to Dobes as a working breed. It is awesome to see so much enthusiasm and great ideas.
Kara- you are right, not only does it seem clumsy as hell to be holding a dog and pinching like they don't know where it comes from, but that might develop trust issues in my opinion. They are not in the top 5 smartest dog breeds for nothing.
Steve- I like a lot of your information. You seem to be pretty knowledgeable in physiology as well.
Dobermanman- I agree about Michael Ellis. Easy to follow and THOROUGH. Really like Balabanov too (not Leerburg, I know).
Cashmando-I have really tried to stay focused on what I see when I am there. It is so fun and inspiring to see dogs out there having a good time, working and fulfilled. Thanks for the well wishes. I thoroughly enjoy the exchanges going on about different methods.
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 19, 2012 16:05:40 GMT -5
I agree that flanking is not the best method for teaching the out. One of the early clubs I attended for awhile flanked dogs. I remember one of the handlers saying "there is no down side". Over the course of a few years I saw more than one club member from that particular club having real trouble with the out. It creates fight drive in the wrong place...between the handler and the dog. Then typically what happens is they go electric which can make the dog crazy. The higher they go with the electric at that point the worse it gets the dog gets blocked and clamps down worse.
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Post by sonterra on Jan 26, 2012 16:56:55 GMT -5
Hello All,
I am away from home on a military course right now and just caught this action today.
I think both sides of this conversation (Kara and Steve) believe in the utmost in the styles of training they use. They are also for different aspects of training.
Steve I am glad that you are finally spelling Vince's name right, lol. However attending a few seminars, as a spectator and not a participant, does not really give you a whole lot of insight into ring. And it does come off, even tho you state you do not do ring, that you think you do know ring.
Steve, I do however agree that the type of work your club does the decoy work should not be done by the handler. It would create a disbond between the handler and dog. It is not the same type of training as Kara is talking about and it is done in different drives.
There is a time and place for adversarial work in ring for sure, and it needs to take place on a regular basis if the dog is to progress past ring 1. It can be done by the handler but in my experience it is not a good thing to do with the dog. I think the real fight experience needs to be done with another decoy, one experienced in that aspect, and comfortable with it.
I can and have decoyed my own dog, and this works perfect for technique issues (not that I am great at technique but I have seen great technique results with handler/decoy teams). There is no problem with teaching pivots, laterals, showing stick moves, etc as the handler. French ring in particular is VERY technique heavy, and this can for the most part, depending on the dog and decoy, be done by the owner/handler.
However, when it comes time to show the dog level 3 pressure, level 3 stress, level 3 stick (and to a lesser extent showing the dog this in level 2 as well) I am a firm believer that it should not be the handler. I do not think the dog should ever have to face the handler as a serious adversary.
If I have a child and he wants to box... I can train him, even spar with him and prepare him for a real fight, but I personally do not ever want to put my child in a positions to have to fight me in actuallity. I would not train my child to have to fight me. Maybe some others would, but I think it would definately mess up the relationship.
On top of all this, you do what you have to do. Not all of us have access to a great decoy, great club or great training. You try to learn as much as you can, when and where you can. A person I consider a great friend used to tell me that he trained with the best trainer and therefore had no need to go to seminars and other training - and fair enough. If you find a good fit stick with it. However there is a whole wide world of other training methods that work, and other people that title, train and win with other methods.
I have trained with trainers that will not use anything put verbal praise and they have been to the cup, and others that utlize clickers and other positive only methods and have also been to the cup. So it is a matter of potatoe, potaaatoe.
Best wishes to everyone, happy training!
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 27, 2012 2:34:59 GMT -5
Steve I am glad that you are finally spelling Vince's name right, lol. However attending a few seminars, as a spectator and not a participant, does not really give you a whole lot of insight into ring. And it does come off, even tho you state you do not do ring, that you think you do know ring. Steve, I do however agree that the type of work your club does the decoy work should not be done by the handler. It would create a disbond between the handler and dog. It is not the same type of training as Kara is talking about and it is done in different drives. ! No, when I say I have limited exposure, I mean I have limited exposure and do not know much about Ring. Anytime I mention Ring, I believe I say I know very little about Ring. You can read more into it if you like but it is not in my head that I know much about it beyond a bit of spectating (oh and picking up what a few people that are into it have told me). To be honest I do not have that much interest at this point. As far as that goes I know relatively little about Schutzhund after 15-20 hours per week (minimum) of training for 8 years. That is painfully clear at every training session with Lance. Then again after spending 7,000 hours with him, I know more than some people. |
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Post by sonterra on Jan 27, 2012 15:26:38 GMT -5
Steve,
I lied you still spelt Vinny's name wrong. It is Vince Nelles.
Here are your words:
"As far as French Ring I don't know much and am the first to say I do not know much. However, from what I see from the one seminar I attended, visting Vince Nulles club several times, and from video it looks like most of the exercises are based on prey attraction. The decoys do not appear to be trying to be as adversarial to the dog as they are sort of dancing with the dog."
I hope that you can see how your remarks are derrogatory, and even tho you state you have only attended ONE seminar as an Auditor, you feel you can adaquately make the statement that it is "dancing" not adversarial.
Having done all my foundation work with Vince's club (Predators and Langely Ring Club) I can tell you personally that when it is needed in the training phases, Vince Nelles can put pressure on a dog like no one I have ever met! If you want to see a master, go check Vinny out on a level 3 dog! So maybe you just didn't stay at the seminar long enough.
My point, that i might add you completely missed, is that there is actually more than one way to skin a cat.
Have I flanked a dog, oh hells yes. Have I tried other methods, hells yes. You work TO the DOG. Whatever brings out the best in the TEAM! I have used methods I swore I would never use, with good results, and used some methods that produced no effect that I will not use again.
It has to fit the handlers ethos and the dogs ability.
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Post by John K. on Feb 1, 2012 12:50:09 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum Sailorgirl...congrats on getting a puppy from the Bruno/Cinders breeding. They should be excellent working prospects and will be fun to hear about your progress. We have a new club member getting a puppy from the same breeding, so it will be fun to see the female develop.
I wouldn't worry too much about kicking up a shit-storm on here as that seems to be the norm....I would just take the advice from the forum with a grain of salt. Seems you will find the ones that have the most advice to offer are the ones that have done the least on the field. Steve has lots to back up what he offers as he has titled his show-line dog 5 times to a sch 3, under tough judges and tough conditions, which is more than most of so-called working people in North America.
Anyway, good luck with the pup and look forward to hearing updates.
John K.
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Post by traceyh on Feb 3, 2012 13:50:20 GMT -5
Oohhh You Lucky SailorGirl.
I love Bruno, and had I not been so busy now with my other dogs I would have loved to grab a pup from that litter.
I haven’t seen to many Dobermans that really catch my attention but there seems to be more interesting combinations happening lately, which is great.
Have a blast.
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Post by dobermanman on Feb 3, 2012 21:11:14 GMT -5
Come on John
Bruno x Cinder isn't a bad breeding BUT I kind of like the Bruno x Lexa breeding a little more
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