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Post by Bitten on Apr 29, 2011 6:05:57 GMT -5
Cornelia:
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There is one lab that the DV works with and I guess the best way to go is to have a DNA profile done with that lab before the ZTP.
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1: IF the DV is woking with one lab only - that should give them a price deduction, as we are not talking about a full blood work on a dog, merely a DNA ID profile
2: As the sampling is done AT the ZTP, the testing of the blood samples are NOT done before the participation at the ZTP - but AFTER ...
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Post by grabichler on Apr 29, 2011 6:25:31 GMT -5
Tamara,
I didn't miss any part of the new requirement, I just don't understand what you mean by "ulterior motives". Let's say they are not "incredibly paranoid", what exactly do you mean? What exactly is it that you think the DV would be interested in doing with these blood samples?
I'm sure there are labs that are not accepted, so just bringing a DNA profile from any lab from any country may not be OK. So what's the big deal about the judge taking a drop of blood from the ear in case it is needed?
And FYI, owners don't send in anything here. Every sample that gets sent to a lab for any type of evaluation in Germany (and I'm sure this is different for other European countries and I know certainly for the US) is only drawn and sent in by a vet, not the owner. We are not even allowed to send in hip x-rays here. It all goes through the vet office. It is the same with the vWD test and all others. The vet does it, not the owner.
I cannot imagine they would run the test again if you provide a DNA profile from the lab (Generatio) the DV works with.
IMO, one should have a DNA profile for a breding prospect anyway. Medical tests in Germany are super cheap compared to what I used to pay in the US, so I personally don't see what the big deal is about another $ 70/80.
There are only a few more than a handful of ZTP judges that judge all ZTPs worldwide. Do you honestly think you need to go through a vet program to take a drop of blood? And what would make you as the owner more qualified to do it?
Obviously, if one doesn't trust a ZTP judge to be reliable enough to deliver or send in a blood sample, then it makes complete sense not to take part in any ZTP, and luckily nobody gets forced to do that anyway.
Maybe there are too many people who don't like when organizations tell them what to do and this is why there are countries where there will never be any breeding regulations because people insist on "freedom" and that's why millions of dogs and cats are euthanized every year because the shelters are too full..
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Post by grabichler on Apr 29, 2011 6:28:36 GMT -5
Hi Bitten,
Didn't you say you were going to be at a ZTP tomorrow? This will be a perfect opportunity to ask Thomas Becht, who is the DV Vice-Pres. all these questions, won't it?
I'm anxiously waiting for your update.
Good luck tomorrow.
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Post by Bitten on Apr 29, 2011 8:40:17 GMT -5
Tamara, I'm sure there are labs that are not accepted, so just bringing a DNA profile from any lab from any country may not be OK. So what's the big deal about the judge taking a drop of blood from the ear in case it is needed? And FYI, owners don't send in anything here. Every sample that gets sent to a lab for any type of evaluation in Germany (and I'm sure this is different for other European countries and I know certainly for the US) is only drawn and sent in by a vet, not the owner. We are not even allowed to send in hip x-rays here. It all goes through the vet office. It is the same with the vWD test and all others. The vet does it, not the owner. I cannot imagine they would run the test again if you provide a DNA profile from the lab (Generatio) the DV works with. IMO, one should have a DNA profile for a breding prospect anyway. Medical tests in Germany are super cheap compared to what I used to pay in the US, so I personally don't see what the big deal is about another $ 70/80. There are only a few more than a handful of ZTP judges that judge all ZTPs worldwide. Do you honestly think you need to go through a vet program to take a drop of blood? And what would make you as the owner more qualified to do it? Obviously, if one doesn't trust a ZTP judge to be reliable enough to deliver or send in a blood sample, then it makes complete sense not to take part in any ZTP, and luckily nobody gets forced to do that anyway. There are many perspectives, which must be understood - not only looked at with "German glasses" .. ad1) I do not personally have a problem with a ztp judge taking a drop of blood from my dogs ears - I though see a transport problem, where all and everything can happen - through which the sample can be compromized, which I pointed out in an eralier entry, and which haven't been taken into consideration within the requirements set forward ... ad2) Before you state, that you are sure about something, you might want to look into the rules of the various countries within Europe - Personally I know, that there are countries within Europe, where the rules are a lot more strickt than that of Germany, and where there are even more health test requirements, than within the German breeding regulations - but let's leave that point ... In regard to the vWD test - yes, the tests done either through VetGen or Finzymes do not REQUIRE that the sampling is done by a vet, BUT that doesn't mean, that the people who uses these compagnies, do not have the sampling done by a vet, prior to having the test send of for analyse. The test done in Germany, is evaluated through Laboklin - this compagny has just recently obtained permission by VetGen to use their patent - started around January 2010 - test done prior to that, was done through blood samples ONLY, and evaluated by the "old" Elissa test, which has been proven to be incorrect many times - and which has also been my personal experience through using a German stud, tested by Laboklin, with the result N/N = DNA Clear - and which turned out to be very incorrect - this is fact, and I can easily prove it, if needed. In Denmark we/the owners have NEVER been allowed to send in x-rays - only through a vet. Aside from that, Denmark has used the evaluation scale, Germany today is using, but many years before Germany adopted this scale - Funny enough, Danish hip scores, have just recently been approved by DV as "good enough" for participation in the ZTP ... Aside from that - a lot of countries PUBLISH any health result a dog might have obtained - what is published in Germany - merely the hip scores, and then only in their magazine ... ad3) You live in Germany, hence I feel it's ok to demand the use of a German lab - but why should people from other countries spend EXTRA money on sending their test to a German lab, when there's labs just as qualified to performe this test in their respective countries .... ad4) Noone mentioned, that they "personally" would do the blood sampling themselves, not that they would be more or equally qualified compared to that of the ztp judge - I'm all for a DNA ID Profile prior to breeding, but I also strongly belive that this test should be done within the country the dog lives, and where the upcoming litters from the dog will be registrated. ad5) The only reason why there's merely a handfull of ztp judges that judge abroad is, that this opportunity the DV will not give up on, or change. Nor will they let qualified persons obtain the education, unless ofcourse, you are Pezzano or otherwise a representative on the board of IDC ... find it highly political. ad6) Yes, it's not mandatory to participate in the ZTP in regard to breeding, when you do not live in Germany - but to us, who have always / as well as possible, respected this requirement - seen the test as being a positive requirement prior to breeding, might start getting second thoughts ... Health is far more important than an ID test - sorry but it is to me, and personally I belive in the owners of females and males used for breeding, also being the dogs which have been used, as that gives us the certified pedigrees. When DV required a cardio test prior to breeding, I said GREAT, now we are moving in the right direction, but ... merely less than 2 years after, the test was not required anymore, and due to "we do not have a problem in Germany" - HEY come on - look at the test results from Dr. G. Wess - 58% of all tested dogs do have cardion problems. Then we have the phtvl/phpv - a dominant heritage, but is it a requirement prior to breeding in Germany - NO .... strange ... no wonder we still are dealing with a lot of health issues ... Finally - Germany is not the center of the world - yes, it's the origin country of the breed, but that doesn't make Germany the better of any / a lot of countries outside Germany Nothing personally - just stating my point of view in this matter. |
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Post by grabichler on Apr 29, 2011 8:50:51 GMT -5
Hi Bitten,
I hope you have your list of questions together to ask tomorrow. Then we can stop speculating on a forum and will know exactly what the new requirement is all about. I have sent the main breed warden an email as well.
I don't have time now to respond to all of your points, but would love to talk to you at a later time. I'm sure we will be in chat one of these days anyway, and then we can compare "Danish" and "German" viewpoints.
Since you seem to find it problematic that all the ZTP judges (with a few exceptions) come from Germany, you may also want to ask about the requirements to become a ZTP judge. Who knows, maybe you qualify with all your experience in the breed.
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Post by Bitten on Apr 29, 2011 9:28:37 GMT -5
Hi Bitten, Since you seem to find it problematic that all the ZTP judges (with a few exceptions) come from Germany, you may also want to ask about the requirements to become a ZTP judge. Who knows, maybe you qualify with all your experience in the breed. If these requirements haven't changed lately, I do not need to ask - We tried for years to get one of our judges accepted - the person went into a so-called education programme, set up by DV, and it never went further. This person is still a highly recognized FCI special breed judge, and with breeder experience - the previllage to obtain status as ZTP judge when being from another country than Germany, is merely for the people within the so-called "inner group" - as said, it's all far too political, and I personally don't like this attitude. |
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Post by grabichler on Apr 29, 2011 13:08:14 GMT -5
I do know that there is an Austrian judge, Inge Eberstaller, so it is possible.
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Post by dobimouse on Apr 30, 2011 0:10:20 GMT -5
If anybody has doubt about the DNA-test, he can let test his dog with this lab (official lab of the DV): www.generatio.de/ before he wants to take part in the ZTP. This lab is the same the GSD is using for DNA-test. I think the DNA-test is important and right to be done because the micro-chip itself is not save enough to be sure that you have the right dog from the right breeder with the right pedigree. Ulrike |
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Post by dobimouse on Apr 30, 2011 0:26:58 GMT -5
Hi, Bitten, you wrote: So the form of DNA profile you are requesting hasn't been available for that many years, and has as such nothing to do with the overall health within the breed - so I find it hard to understand, that due to lack of this DNA profile, the breed is now a ticking bomb when it comes to health. Several diseases are not yet profiled through DNA - and so far those that have been profiled, give evidence of, that the heritage behind these diseases are historically old. just mentioning facts, and not speculations ... You are defintively wrong and what Lisa wrote were no speculations. I know definitively that in some pedigrees the official Sire is not the real Sire, and the Dam in the pedigree is not the real Dam, therfore it is absolutely correct what Lisa wrote referring to health problems. Or please answer me following question: how can it be that puppies from a brown male and a brown female are brown and black?  Normally that's not possible!!!!!!!!!!! Why is it possible that one studmale has transmitted faulty genes to puppies from different females? (testical faults, teeth faults, colour faults, jaw faults and so on...) Each breeder who has taken this special studmale has had faults in his litter. |
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Post by Bitten on Apr 30, 2011 3:16:08 GMT -5
1: an DNA ID - will tell you the idendity of the individual, it will NOT tell you the possible genetic errors within the individual => hence not the possible health rick within the individual - you need to keep things in the right perspective - and DNA ID has not reference to health as such, for that you need specific DNA test, directed at the diseases there might be, and as merely a very few diseases sofar has been DNA profiled. DNA ID profile is not the same as a DNA profile for a disease.
2: There seems to have occured more than merely a mating between two dogs of the colour brown.
3: The heritages you seem to be refering to, are of recessive heritage => both parents must have at least one allee, for these errors to occur within a litter. If either the male or these females, had been used in connection with a different mating, where the partner didn't have the genetic disposition, these errors wouldn't have occured.
- testicals = recessive genetic disposition => both parentes must have the genetic disposition
- teeth = the same as above
Which form of jaw faults are you referring to, as this need to be specified.
As for colour fault, again I need to know what you are referring to - as neither of the 4 colours can be said to be a fault, this heritage is latent within the overall breed - but if either of the dogs within a mating has been tested for colour transmission, and the outcome within a mating is not in accordance to this, there are other issues which should be looked into - but again, as all breeders according to you, that have used this specific stud, have had the problems you descripe, I have to assume that you are referring to the so-called colour "fault" of transmitting diluted puppies - IF that is the case, I can again make reference to, that the genetic transfer of this heritage is recessive, which again means, that the parents to the litter both have the genetic disposition to transfer this heritage.
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Post by Bitten on Apr 30, 2011 3:22:58 GMT -5
If anybody has doubt about the DNA-test, he can let test his dog with this lab (official lab of the DV): www.generatio.de/ before he wants to take part in the ZTP. This lab is the same the GSD is using for DNA-test. I think the DNA-test is important and right to be done because the micro-chip itself is not save enough to be sure that you have the right dog from the right breeder with the right pedigree. Ulrike Ulrike The requirement within the ztp in regard to DNA ID testing, states clearly, that the testing must be performed by the ZTP judge, and that any prior DNA ID test, will not be accepted. ALL dogs must undergo the testing by the ZTP judge at the ZTP, and the tests will be analysed by the lab which DV send the tests .. Do keep in mind, I am pro DNA ID testing - but I do believe that people outside Germany whould be allowed to have their dogs DNA ID tested within the country they reside, and that the result from such a DNA ID profile, should be accepted by the DV equally to that of the DNA ID test DV now is performing in Germany. |
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Post by Bitten on Apr 30, 2011 15:10:46 GMT -5
Hi ALL ...
With reference to a previous entry I made, I have today, observed the ZTP conducted according to the newly amended rules. Judges was Thomas Brecht, viceprecident of the DV, who was very forthcomming and kindly answered my questions:
1 - why has it been necessesary to inforce DNA ID testing in connection with participation at the ZTP
-- a - From 2012 only chipping will be allowed as ID of litters/dogs etc. in Germany - IF a dog should "loose" the chip / or it should, due to whatever reason, be necessesary to have the chip replaced -the DNA ID will be the tool for confirmation of indentification of the dog, which will allow the dog to have a new chip incerted, and ensure that only one chip nummer is attached to the individual dog.
-- b - Several other breeds of dogs in Germany, have already enforced this system, and model of identification.
-- c - to reassure that the individual dogs, used in breeding, are the dogs used - guarentee of correct parenthood, and guarentee of correct issued pedigrees to the offspring. All litters born in Germany, at the present, are all being DNA ID before pedigrees are being issued.
2 - The people who has been appointed to performe this task:
-- a - breedward and 5 ztp judges
-- b - have undergone proper education at vets, to ensure that this work is being done correctly.
3 - DNA ID
- blood sampling for this test, can be performed by a vet, normally used by the owner of the dog, and prior to participation at ztp - but must be send to analyse at:
-- the lab which DV was made contract with [http://www.generatio.de/]
-- IF another lab is used, this lab MUST use same form and norm of DNA ID analyse methode as the lab recommended by DV
-- IF a DNA ID test, is not in accordance to the requirements of those set forward by the DV - the DNA ID test will not be accepted, and a new DNA test must be made and send for analyse at [http://www.generatio.de/]
This is the best translation I can do, as the conversation I had with Thomas Brecht, was in German ...
As an example:
If I personally want this DNA ID test done on my dog, I will have to contact my vet - this vet will sample the dog. IF the lab used, is not the one recommended by DV, the lab I use must use the same form and norm to performae the analyse, as the one used by the recommended lab. To ensure, that nothing goes worng, and the test in form and norm is the same as requiered by DV - I can have my vet send the sample to the recommended lab in Germany. The certification obtained, is hence valid for participation at the German ZTP, and a copy of the certification must be attached to the entry papers.
Having the blood drawn by our own vets, and them sending in the sample to the lab recommended by DV = that IF we in the future in Denmark should get a similar requirement, this already obtained DNA ID test, will be recognized by our Danish Kennel Club.
Short version - you can have the blood sampling done in YOUR country - analyse test done at a lab in your country - the latter only IF this lab use the same form and norm as the recommended lab.
Hope again - this explation is understandable, and clarify questions raised - I know, I got my answers, and feel comfitable with the answer obtained.
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Post by grabichler on Apr 30, 2011 16:47:39 GMT -5
Hi Bitten,
Thanks.
So how was the ZTP?
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