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Post by sonterra on Apr 19, 2011 15:06:51 GMT -5
Is there just the one ZTP offering this year? Anyone know if the ADA is putting on any this year? I can't seem to get a response to my emails. This is the response I got when I emailed them a few weeks ago: "We plan the National Meistershaf Championship with BH-VPG 1 - 2 - 3 - OB 1 - 2 - 3 - TR 1 - 2 - 3 - FH 1 - FH 2 on 30-31 July 2011 in Snohomish, WA. All the information will be on the website as soon as possible." |
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Post by LRadcliffe on Apr 19, 2011 15:07:26 GMT -5
" the only thing I can think of is that dog A is a shitter and wouldn't pass if his life depended on it " This is a pretty funny statement! What is your definition of a "shitter" The list of some of the dobermann's who have not passed the ZTP in the currant DV are the ones who would more than likely defend YOU if you depended on it. Take a look at how the ZTP was and how it is now, in regard to the dogs that passed then look at the dogs today that pass, I think you will find your answer.
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Post by sonterra on Apr 21, 2011 11:21:43 GMT -5
Hey Lisa, gear down big rig... the person that posted that is a relative newbie and made an honest post. I understand you have concerns from the last ADA ZTP, however jumping all over a newbie isn't real fair either.
Why do you think the DV is going to such lengths to ensure they have a DNA profile of every dog?
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Post by LRadcliffe on Apr 21, 2011 13:24:55 GMT -5
Tamara, my post was not meant to be a "big rig" it was obvious the poster was a newbie, but if someone makes a reference to a working, sport or breeding dog as a "shitter" let's make sure they can define what it is! It is possible that Cassie learned something here or will look closer into just what a ZTP is, not a title for starters as she thinks it is! From what I know the DNA profile has been asked for, for a long time. If we had this kind of info for the dobermann's in the past maybe the breed would not be such a walking time bomb health wise! But then again add in politics, people who breed with no health regards and were does that lead?
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Post by Bitten on Apr 21, 2011 14:36:09 GMT -5
From what I know the DNA profile has been asked for, for a long time. If we had this kind of info for the dobermann's in the past maybe the breed would not be such a walking time bomb health wise! But then again add in politics, people who breed with no health regards and were does that lead? 1: DNA profiling wasn't used before 1987 and in crime cases from 1992 and the years after 2: DNA profile in this case = ID of the individual So the form of DNA profile you are requesting hasn't been available for that many years, and has as such nothing to do with the overall health within the breed - so I find it hard to understand, that due to lack of this DNA profile, the breed is now a ticking bomb when it comes to health. Several diseases are not yet profiled through DNA - and so far those that have been profiled, give evidence of, that the heritage behind these diseases are historically old. just mentioning facts, and not speculations ... Bitten |
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Post by grabichler on Apr 21, 2011 15:03:39 GMT -5
As far as the ID is concerned, Dobie puppies in Germany are tattoed, microchipped and DNA'd before DV registration papers are issued. Microchips and DNA have been required since 1/1/11.
To me, it does make sense to know the DNA of the parents, in the case of new ZTPs, the DNAs of the parents of future litters.
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Post by LRadcliffe on Apr 21, 2011 16:30:00 GMT -5
< DNA-based identity profile > if listed on registration, one can further investigate more info on the dog besides just identity or at least it is an option but of course not the whole picture. I was not going back that many years, but let's say 5 years someone has been asking for this type of testing. Sorry. " that the heritage behind these diseases are historically old" yes genetics in dog breeding are very complicated, but it is a FACT that the dobermann's of the past were not "here today and gone tomorrow" like they are now.
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Post by Cassie on Apr 22, 2011 22:27:40 GMT -5
I'm sorry but I do not understand what I am supposed to be learning here other than the fact that you are clearly trying to make me look like an idiot. If you will go back to my original post I never posted anything as fact, just my thoughts. I understand that you want other newbies to read this and understand what the ZTP is etc, but I think you should have presented yourself a little differently IMO. I have been nothing but nice to everyone and willing to learn, without arguments.
I am not a special snowflake and do not expect to be treated as such however treating newbies to the sport(s) like this is likely the reason not to many people are interested in working with their dogs past "sit" nowadays. But that is a different issue. Thanks for your input but the only thing I have "learned" from you is to not post anything without researching the topic throughly first because of people like you.
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Post by LRadcliffe on Apr 23, 2011 0:30:52 GMT -5
Cassie, sorry you feel I could have presented myself " a little differently " my post was not to make you look like an idiot! It's not easy to be a newbie in this sport everyone starts as one. The road to the title is long tough up a bit!
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kay
Puppy
Posts: 21
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Post by kay on Apr 23, 2011 16:18:08 GMT -5
Cassie, Don't be afraid to ask questios as that is how you learn. You will get great responses from some, good from others and bad resposes from some.
As far as the ZTP not being a starter, with the correct temperment dog it should be. If the dog has some protection work started, there is little obedience and control in the bitework and little obedience in the temperment test, but the dog has to have the correct temperment.
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Post by boomer on Apr 23, 2011 18:32:23 GMT -5
Wonder why the DV insists on a blood sample versus a say a cheek swap?
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Post by grabichler on Apr 28, 2011 17:07:08 GMT -5
What guarentee is there that the blood from the dogs will ONLY be used for a DNA test? And that the judge handles it correctly? And whom is authorized to draw the blood sample?? A judge is most certainly NOT a vet tech or vet. What are you concerned about, i.e. what else do you think the DV might do with the blood samples taken at the ZTP? It is only a drop of blood taken from the ear. I have heard that cheek swab samples sometimes don't have enough cells and then they have to be repeated. And dogs have to be kept separated from one another for a while before you take the sample. And not right after eating etc... Participants as well as judges tend to travel a long way to attend a ZTP and you want to be sure you get a good sample the first time. There is one lab that the DV works with and I guess the best way to go is to have a DNA profile done with that lab before the ZTP. |
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Post by sonterra on Apr 28, 2011 19:14:10 GMT -5
What are you concerned about, i.e. what else do you think the DV might do with the blood samples taken at the ZTP? It is only a drop of blood taken from the ear. There is one lab that the DV works with and I guess the best way to go is to have a DNA profile done with that lab before the ZTP. Did you miss the part about even if you have a certified DNA profile they will STILL take another sample?? That is either incredibly paranoid or they have ulterior motives. I would not allow a perfect stranger, whose only qualifications to take said sample is that they can look at a dog and judge it, to take samples of my blood - so why would it be acceptable for my dog? Lets say I go to the ADA, and a "judge" takes a blood sample... how is that anymore reliable, seeing as they will have to store, carry and deliver the sample to a lab in German (and they probably have no qualifications or training to do so), than the owner sending it into be done here?? Seems to me that the sample would more than likely be compromised - or worse - lost like luggage. |
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Post by Bitten on Apr 29, 2011 5:24:57 GMT -5
It's also rather expencieve - I was told that the are charging € 56 for the DNA sample, they now are requirering for participation in the German ZTP ....
Seeing it from a different point of view - why ad this requirement to the ZTP - each country either full member or associated member under the FCI, could make additional breeding requirements, like:
- all dogs must have a DNA prolife before they are allowed in breeding
in this way, the owners of the dogs, could have the test done themselves, get the certification, and the test would be done by vets certified to do this job.
Persoanlly I'm all for, that we should have as many informations about the dogs within the Dobermann breed, whether these are used for breeding or not, but I also belive in, that it should be the choice of the owners, who they wish to performe such a test. I do not doubt, that we all would be able to draw a drop of blood from our dogs, nor that a ztp judge would be able to - I would worry about the possible compromize of the test material, and in this case a blood sample is easier exposed than a swab ... As an example of where swabs have been used, is the WUS testing, and from the dogs in Finland, I only known of ONE dog from 310 dogs, that had to deliver a new sample, due to too little material for DNA profiling. The calculated % of fault/error is not mentionable in regard to swabs - hence to me, it would be far more safe, IF the ztp judge was to use the swab methode for DNA sampling - 2 swabs per dog, as used in so many other programmes where swabs are used to sample DNA for profiling.
I do see another problem - IF a blood sample has been compromized AFTER it was collected, this will not be found out before the sample is at the lab - and as the DNA sample now is a part of requirements for passing the ZTP, this specific dog, will not pass, regardless that it's neither the fault of the dog nor the owner/handler of the dog - BUT due to store and transport error. What will now happen - as this has NOT been mentioned at all within the new "requirements" - will the dog/owner have to travel to Germany, meet up with the judge at the ZTP, to have a new sample drawn, and await the result of this sample, before the dog obtain its certification on the ZTP - OR, will the dog/owner be allowed to take a new test at their personal vets, to fulfill the requirement = either solution, adding additional costs to the owner, and merely due to an error performed by the person who sampled the dog in the first place - will the DV compensate the owner financially ....
In other words, I feel this new requirement, hasn't been thought through - BUT - the DV has ruled, this is how THEY want the test performed, and neither of us will be able to change that decission.
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Post by Bitten on Apr 29, 2011 5:46:36 GMT -5
The ZTP rules as such:
I find it absolutely rediculess, that dogs born/bred in the USA, must have a cardio test prior to participation at the ZTP, when this requirement is NOT set forward in regard to any other dogs participating.
Rediculess because - DCM / cardio problem, is NOT merely a USA problem, it's a WORLD WIDE problem, which also has been confirmed through the findings by Dr. G. Wess at Münich University - 58% of all dogs tested by Dr. G. Wess have been diagnosed with DCM (do not believe that the numbers of USA born/bred dogs is highly representative within this group of dogs - majority of dogs, according to Dr. G. WEss himself, are European bred dogs) ... SO why on earth is it ONLY the dogs from USA, that must present a cardio test prior to participation at the ZTP ...
I know this requirement, has been there for some years - still, with all the new and recent findings, this discrimination SHOULD have been removed from the requirements - science has proved, that this requirement cannot be pointed alone towards the USA bred dogs.
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