No prong - no electric - is it possible at all?

[grabichler]

A lot of European countries have different laws as far as dog training gadgets are concerned. There are countries where you are not allowed to sell/buy/own or use for instance an electric collar or a prong. In other countries, you are allowed to sell, buy and own, but not use an electric collar, all depending on the circumstances. And dogs are trained and learn anyway... or don't they? How is this possible? Do people meet and train secretly behind a bush, so that the public can't see what's going on ?

I remember trials in the US where competitors are not allowed to use electric or prong collars around the trial field (at bigger events).

Are the dogs tricked into not knowing for the 10 minutes that they are on the trial field that the collar is actually not on the neck ... ?

So I guess my question is, what would you do if from one day to the next, you weren't allowed to use any of these dog training gadgets that are considered cruel in some countries? Not when you go for a walk with your dog, not when you train. Stop owning a dog? Stop training? Find different methods? Move to another country?

[Von]

Yes I wonder about that also!!!!!! What did I do for all these years preparing dogs for local, state and regional security. Don't know a thing about training for sport (Sch.) but the last time I looked its OB, tracking and bite work, guess I've done that a few times hahahaha!!! To answer your question grabichler I have NO clue why these things are used today other than they can shorten the training time on some tasks for some dogs, makes some sense!!!! Then again all of these things in the wrong hands can ruin a dog, makes sense!!!! I don't know!!
I trained for a long time and as far as Dobermanns go I never put a prong, a ecollar or anything but a flat Leather, a small linked choker and a 6 foot lead on any of them. I'll assure you I worked dogs that had the drives and guts all sport people would love today and I never needed anything like those gizmozes (not sure how to spell gizmo) but hey its all different now people are in a hurry to do everything. My buddy Hpoward was telling me how a guy in Germany was using an E-collar to "keep" a dog on a sleeve!!!!! Folks when you need to do that to a dog change the dog and find a real trainer who shows experience & heart, make sense!!! Does to me!!!! Good question!!! Von

[laceync]

I think training and training gadgets have evolved over the years as have trainers - for sports or otherwise. I am also not naive enough to believe that just because a country bans this or that - does not mean the items are still not being used in those countries behind bushes or closed doors or closed training sessions. A leash and or flat collar can be used in such a manner to be deemed cruel....I think it has more to do with the person using whatever training tool, then the tool itself. Take away a flat collar or leash because it can be used in a cruel manner and the person still has their hands and feet to use in a cruel manner.

I was a police canine handler and trained a few dogs from puppy to certification to work on the streets. The precision that is required in the sports (SchH, FR, MR etc) is alot harder in my honest opinion then what is required for say.....NAPWDA or USPCA certification. Tracking through drive...using every scent available to a dog is alot easier to teach and is more "natural" for a dog then footstep tracking as it is wanted and graded in Schutzhund. There is no comparision to the obedience required in Schutzhund - and how it is graded. I remember when I first saw Schutzhund/French Ring Training when I was actively working a dog on the streets and what I thought to myself = how easy the sport is.....my view of the sport changed when I actually started trying to train a dog for the sport to score well:)

Back to the question - I would continue to teach and train my dog...even if I could not use a pinch collar. I could not imagine my life without a dog in it - so not having a dog anymore would be out of the question. I love the USA to much to leave my country.

[patrick]

I guess some of the "gadgets" which are used have use to get your desired result in some way but IMO the most important thing in training a dog is respect from both sides and this has nothing to do with hanging his neck full of collars or put him in some harness....

Now i used an e-collar or a pinch myself in certain situations but only when i considered before exactly why and what i was going to do during that training session and NOT to impress others or wanted to make my dog look like Mr. T.

In Germany as Cornelia said it is forbidden to use an e-collar on a dog and at a worldchampionschip if you use one within a certain range from the stadium and the organisation will know there is a possibility your whole team will be disqualified.

[patrick]

In Germany it is forbidden in some states i ment...

[rafensoda]

Train without them. It's not as difficult as you may think, especially with a highly motivated dog. If your dog has good food or toy drive, you don't have a problem. It may take longer than a dog trained with an ecollar and pinch, but I'm also betting the behavior will be much more reliable when there are no collars around your dog's neck.

[rosamburg]

Sure anything is possible. There are many different approaches to training. I think a lot also depends on what level of competition a person wishes to have success at.

In Schutzhund if you want to compete at high levels you have to have a great deal of precision under severe distractions. This is especially true in the protection phase. A good number of trial routines I see with relatively high scores would not receive the same kind of scores under difficult judges. In many of those video's that I watch the bite work is fine and worthy of high marks, however the obedience in many cases if judged more critically (like it likely would in a high level competition) would take the team certainly out of the SG range into the G range.

I listened to Mr. Collins explain the scoring at the 2009 WUSV. He said by the time the teams got to the escape bite 90% had already been taken out of the possibility of receiving a V score. Some of this was due to a lack of purpose in the blind searches and bark and hold, but was equally due to the lack of precision in obedience.

I think positive reward training can take a person a long way. I had a conversation with a few people who attended the 2010 WUSV in Spain. Their comment was that a lot of dogs had great expression in obedience but under the severe distraction of being in a stadium, especially in protection, many of those routines fell apart. I can only conclude this is where the lack of high level demands and the lack of the kind of corrections you can ONLY get with a pinch or e-collar really shows up.

There of course can be situations where the dog can flip you the bird and pretty much do what they want. This year in Spain one of my training partners had this happen to her. This from a dog who placed 26th in 2008 at the worlds and 14th in 2009, and was a 3 time podium dog at the Canadian Nationals (1st place 2010). However, I personally don't think training with just a fur saver is going to decrease the chance of this happening.

[rafensoda]

I definitely see where you're coming from. For a long time I thought that the only way to get reliability was to add compulsion. Now I just don't think that's the case. I think training is training, no matter what is used, and that if a dog knows an exercise he knows it. The down I have on my dog is a good example. He wasn't trained compulsively, but when I give the down command he hits the deck before he even really knows why he's doing it. It's like an automatic response. And this is under major distractions like chasing a tug, going for the bite, etc., etc. I think it is a very good conditioned response, and a very reliable one.

I'm definitely not saying that there isn't a time and place for compulsion. I'm sure that there is, and I keep all options open for me in my training toolbox. But I also don't think that in most cases it is necessary to use a lot of the compulsion that is used. Just my opinion from what I've seen happen with dogs that have been trained with "balanced" training. A lot of them seem to fall apart out on the field once they realize they won't be corrected for anything. Maybe that's just bad training and has nothing to do with using a lot of compulsion. *shrug*

And I will say I'm really new to the sport, only been in it for 4 or 5 years. I know you've been in it a lot longer than I have, Rosamburg, and have competed at higher levels than I and maybe you'll prove me wrong when I finally start competing with my Dobergirl-we shall see!

[tracey]

I would certainly take note of what Rosamburg says..he is fortunate enough to belong to IMO the most successful club in Canada. Every single one of the members there could compete at a high level in the sport, the training method is the most solid I have ever been exposed to in my 15 years training. So much so, that last Fall, we here in our little portion of Ontario completely changed over and are now training as close as we possibly can, to the way the West Coast German Shepherd SchH Club trains. It is BRILLIANT and I am training a Malinois, GSD and an American Bulldog using this method, works on a number of breeds and temperament types..

I can’t wait to see how Steve and his Dobe bitch do in the future. I just fell in love with her!!! Super dog. Good luck at this weekend’s trial, wish I could be there to cheer everyone on. Hope to see you this summer! I am working my butt off to be out there trialing soon, thanks to the WCGSSC for your guidance, I wouldn’t be where I am without all the help, which is the first time ever having COMPLETE attention from a dog, even in protection:)

Tracey

[rosamburg]

Apr 15, 2011 8:03:03 GMT -5 rafensoda said:

I definitely see where you're coming from. For a long time I thought that the only way to get reliability was to add compulsion. Now I just don't think that's the case. I think training is training, no matter what is used, and that if a dog knows an exercise he knows it. The down I have on my dog is a good example. He wasn't trained compulsively, but when I give the down command he hits the deck before he even really knows why he's doing it. It's like an automatic response. And this is under major distractions like chasing a tug, going for the bite, etc., etc. I think it is a very good conditioned response, and a very reliable one.

I'm definitely not saying that there isn't a time and place for compulsion. I'm sure that there is, and I keep all options open for me in my training toolbox. But I also don't think that in most cases it is necessary to use a lot of the compulsion that is used. Just my opinion from what I've seen happen with dogs that have been trained with "balanced" training. A lot of them seem to fall apart out on the field once they realize they won't be corrected for anything. Maybe that's just bad training and has nothing to do with using a lot of compulsion. *shrug*

And I will say I'm really new to the sport, only been in it for 4 or 5 years. I know you've been in it a lot longer than I have, Rosamburg, and have competed at higher levels than I and maybe you'll prove me wrong when I finally start competing with my Dobergirl-we shall see!

I don't have a ton of personal experience either since I have only been training in Schutzhund for 7 years and brought only one dog to the Schutzhund 3 level. In fact, I consider myself at best a mediocre handler. Where I am blessed is training for the past 6 years in a club that has a highly systematic approach to training, where everyone is using the same methods. These methods have proven to bring a high level of success to a large number of handlers.

In the year prior to joining WC, I trained under other very successful trainers and handlers. I have tried to be a sponge of the knowledge and expertise of all of the successful trainers I have worked with and under.

It is very obvious to me that in the heat of the moment I often fall short of being able to apply the correct approach at the precise moment in my own personal handling of the dog I am working.

As far as the discussion, a correction is not necessarily compulsion. Compulsion, at least in our system, is defined as using a correction to steer/force the dog into the correct position. In fact this is often the very definition of traditional Schutzhund training. The most serious drawback in this approach is that often the expression of the dog suffers and often the speed of the exercise is compromised. In the traditional approach the dog is not really working, the handler is working. This does increase the chance of the dog falling apart when there is no way for the handler to do the work for them.

In our system conflict is introduced either by use of an e-collar or leash/collar correction (usually a pinch collar, but in the case of a very sensitive dog sometimes dead link on a fur saver). However the correction is introduced in a manner which does not force/steer the dog into the correct position as is the case in traditional Schutzhund training. In traditional training the force would not stop until the dog is in the correct position. In our system the conflict stops as soon as the dog begins to fight to be in the correct position.

I think a dog can fall apart on the field for a variety of reasons. What I repeatedly hear from my mentors is the most common cause of dogs falling apart is that they have not been successfully proofed in an exercise under severe distraction. While failure on the field can appear to be the case of the collars being removed and the dog being collar-wise, I think that if you were to get to the bottom of it you would find in most cases it is due to this lack of proofing of exercises. The trial with the collars off just exposes the weaknesses in the routine or in some cases the current relationship the dog has with the handler.

[rafensoda]

Believe me I'm not saying that the club's methods are bad. Obviously they have a lot of very nice dogs that are extremely competitive in high levels, so they must be doing something right! I guess what I was trying to get at was that I don't think it is always necessary to use a prong or e-collar in training to get those results. There are so many different ways of training and no method works for every dog. I was simply giving my opinion that just because you aren't able to use an ecollar or pinch on a dog doesn't mean you can't train it to a competitive level, as that was what the OP was asking about.

I see what you're saying about the difference between a collar smart dog and a dog that has not been proofed or does not completely understand the exercise. This makes sense. And I too am looking forward to hearing how your new bitch does (along with Ace and his new young handler!).

[rosamburg]

Apr 15, 2011 20:25:54 GMT -5 rafensoda said:

Believe me I'm not saying that the club's methods are bad. Obviously they have a lot of very nice dogs that are extremely competitive in high levels, so they must be doing something right! I guess what I was trying to get at was that I don't think it is always necessary to use a prong or e-collar in training to get those results. There are so many different ways of training and no method works for every dog. I was simply giving my opinion that just because you aren't able to use an ecollar or pinch on a dog doesn't mean you can't train it to a competitive level, as that was what the OP was asking about.

I see what you're saying about the difference between a collar smart dog and a dog that has not been proofed or does not completely understand the exercise. This makes sense. And I too am looking forward to hearing how your new bitch does (along with Ace and his new young handler!).

I agree that there are "many ways to skin a cat". A person just needs to be aware that there are some potential drawbacks. I had this conversation with a very good trainer who I spent time with in Germany. She is primarily a cookie trainer, though she does use corrections but the scale is very much tipped toward positive reward. She is very talented trainer but also pointed out that she is not focused on the podium and recognizes potential shortcomings of primarily positive reward training systems.

I did not see your comments as saying my club is bad or anything of the sort. Different people have different approaches and one needs to stick to what they feel is right. Some people are opposed to the electric collar as I once was. I respect their right to oppose it.

Thanks for the comments about the dogs we are working. Cairo is a pleasure to work. Ace and Angelika are coming along but is a big transition. He is a lot to handle for a slight 11 year old girl. In her circumstance we are using a lot of food in the training process because she is simply not strong enough to reward in any other way. She worked with Dr. Gabi Hoffman last night and that was interesting. Gabi was clicker trainer before she met Lance and is very proficient at it though she abandoned that mode of training when she discovered and embraced Lance's system. She is working a dog right now with extreme drives and is using food reward primarily because like her current competition dog he overloads with prey rewards. She was demonstrating to Angelika with Ace and it was pretty amazing what she could get out of him. So what I am saying that many different methods and approaches can and do have a place.

[osirisdobermanns]

I was wondering the same thing as Iam wondering of ways to proof the long down with out a prong and or a e-collar as my dog is dog aggressive and I can only use my other dogs for training excercises as I am too afraid to train with other peoples dogs with my dog off leash Her OB on leash is Solid and everything but the long down and stay consistently are great. I am getting frustrated as I feel I am stuck in a Rut with my girl not because of her but because of me. So I am trying to see what the best method would be to achieve my goal. As so many trainers have showed, taught me the "best" method for training but I find that what works with one dog may not always work or not be suited to another dog. I have never had this problem before.

[sonterra]

I think that question depends on the dog. In a perfect world it would be great to say, no we don't need the pinch or ecollar. If we all owned the same kind of bidable, easy tempermented dogs that automatically capped their own drive, were not stubborn/hard headed, or pain tolerant/intolerant as the case may be.

I know people that I would not even hold their dogs without a sharpened pinch on, and others that have dogs whose heads would pop right off if they got a correction from a pinch, let alone an ecollar.

Regardless of tool, I think there has to be a boundary and a way to enforce it - at distance, when the dog is in high drive, etc. This may be able to be done without a pinch or ecollar, but it also may not. In some cases the pinch/ecollar may be the most humane way to communiate with the dog, or it can be one of the most abusive tools I have ever seen.

In the pet world, I think the pinch collar can be life saving for some dogs. Owners who can not physically handle the dog, can gain control thru a pinch (on walks for example). I personally always use a pinch collar on all my dogs when I bike or rollerblade with my dogs.

On another note, I have been to many seminars with french trainers/decoys, that will not allow the use of ecollars. Not from any moral standpoint, but because it is a tool that is very hard to fade in some dogs. I have also seen french trainers/decoys advice people that their dogs can not handle a pinch collar and so to not use it. And if anyone would like to think these trainers are kinder and gentler, I would also advise that the same french trainers have used stress methods that completely horrified me! So to me it is kinda the Toemato - tahmato issue.

If you look at countries like Switzerland where the pinch and ecollar are outlawed, they are still participating in sport, and in mondio in particular are always on top or very close to it in the world stage.

[cashmando1]

Great thread!

I know that with my dog I only use a fur saver in obedience most of the time. In protection I use a prong and then transition to the fur saver. He is a very biddable dog. In the future there may be a time where I will need to use e-collar. I will not have a problem doing so, as I think they can be very useful in training. In fact I think it's good to have a variety of different training tools.

Can it be done without those tools? I don't know yet as I am very new to the sport. I do think it depends a lot on the type of dog you have. I myself find that it's much more black and white for my dog when I use the prong vs just purely positive methods.