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Post by lestat1978 on Feb 24, 2011 10:22:25 GMT -5
Welcome from Pittsburgh.
I am on the waiting list for a CARA Dobe. I'm planning on doing SAR, among other things, but Schutzhund isn't on my list. However, I can say they've been very good at responding to all of my e-mails/questions.
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Post by cashmando1 on Feb 24, 2011 22:56:35 GMT -5
Thank you all for the welcomes & the input. I'd really prefer to "buy American" just becasue I'd hope to be able to meet the dogs and the offspring, see how the breeder keeps the dogs etc. Also as of now I don't have any contacts in Europe to help point me in the right direction. The dogs at Landgraf look very strong and the breed seems to have a sound philosophy towards the breed. I'm within driving distance to Cara & Bellavoros who both have titled dogs so I may start there. ANyone have dogs from these breeders? HI Tara, My personal opinion, IF your main interest is in Schutzhund? Then I'd go with one of the Working breeders like Landgraf or John K or Ascomannis. With proper training they will be more likely to trial on any field and do well. IF you're looking for the "total Dobermann" and want to compete in conformation and Schutzhund then Cara or Bellalavoros would be a better choice. The caveat is (IMHO) these dogs aren't as strong in Schutzhund and require a home field advantage or a professional trainer. While I think dogs from Landgraf, John's breedings, or Ascomannis would be strong dogs that could compete at very high level competition . I think it's a bit closed minded to say dogs other than PURE working lines need a home field advantage or a pro. trainer. At our club a good dog is a GOOD dog, regardless of breed or pedigree. Maybe they are not as strong, but certainly many acquire their titles away from their home field and owner handled.  |
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Post by LRadcliffe on Feb 25, 2011 4:38:19 GMT -5
" I think it's a bit closed minded to say-" I find a lot about this thread "closed Minded " and for that matter a dog is a lot more than a pedigree, kennel name or a "shitter" anyway! but of course that's JMO..... ;D
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Post by tara on Feb 25, 2011 10:25:04 GMT -5
Well one thing I CANNOT STAND is breeders who point out all the (perceived or real) flaws in other breeders programs.. I find it a severe character flaw in people who feel the need to crap on others in an attempt to "sell themselves."  For this reason, one of the breeders I was going to visit is crossed off my list. Moving on .... |
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Post by dobermanman on Feb 25, 2011 13:37:41 GMT -5
Ladies,
I don't breed or sell any Dobermanns and have no financial interest in where you buy your dogs from.
I'm giving you my opinion based on personal experience, on the most likely breeders to provide you with a puppy you can take to any field and compete against all comers in the sport of SCHUTZHUND
This forum is getting bad as DoberTalk and the Nexus. No wonder it's not as active as it was :-(
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Post by Bitten on Feb 25, 2011 15:03:58 GMT -5
Thomas ... aren't you taking things a bit out of perspective ...
Tara asked: have any of you dogs from Cara or Bellalavoros
Thomas: you started giving Tara recomandation in regard to which breeders she should look at
In other words - a misunderstanding of the entry of Tara, and Tara didn't really understand your answer - so let's get down on the ground again ...
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Post by Jag on Feb 25, 2011 17:25:20 GMT -5
there are some good euro showlines that can work- you just have to know where to go.
but I do think the North American and other showlines will definitely not be able to do serious competition with. they jut can't take pressure at that level.
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Post by dobermanman on Feb 25, 2011 17:29:30 GMT -5
Bitten,
Tara's OP stated she'd caught the Schutzhund bug and was looking for a Dobermann to do Schutzhund with, IMO a CARA or Bella...Dobermann is NOT a good choice for a competitive Schutzhund dog.
I just don't have the time energy or inclination to argue with someone that isn't the original poster and isn't even a forum member. We went through this nonsense with the Ascommanis Ingo topic
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Post by dobermanman on Feb 25, 2011 17:33:03 GMT -5
there are some good euro showlines that can work- you just have to know where to go. but I do think the North American and other showlines will definitely not be able to do serious competition with. they jut can't take pressure at that level. BINGO :-) |
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Post by symmetrydobes on Feb 25, 2011 18:16:43 GMT -5
Tara, I don't know much about either of the breeders you have been looking at, but I do own a male who was sired by a Bell'Lavoro male, and while I'm sure I could have found a better dog elsewhere, he's my dog and I love him.
Aside from me being very biased he is actually a VERY sound dog, great temperament, awesome nerves and can take whatever pressure any decoy can throw at him. I haven't seen him blink an eye on the suit or the sleeve once since we have been training him. He has awesome drive in obedience, and his tracking is very methodical.
That being said, he has other issues, but is there a dog without at least a few?
With choosing any puppy listen to what the breeder has to say. She knows her lines the best. Get references from other people that have dogs from there and pay attention to what they have accomplished with them.
It's your first Sch dog, get a dog that shows some potential and go from there...you will grow and learn through the process. What you are looking for now in a dog may change as you grow as a trainer but you have to get started somewhere.
Ps - my north American showline bitch titled away from her home field for her sch1, and has trailed at regionals. The 2 she did at home but on a new helper. It can be done, just depends how determined you are to succeed!!
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Post by cashmando1 on Feb 25, 2011 20:17:19 GMT -5
Tara, I don't know much about either of the breeders you have been looking at, but I do own a male who was sired by a Bell'Lavoro male, and while I'm sure I could have found a better dog elsewhere, he's my dog and I love him. Aside from me being very biased he is actually a VERY sound dog, great temperament, awesome nerves and can take whatever pressure any decoy can throw at him. I haven't seen him blink an eye on the suit or the sleeve once since we have been training him. He has awesome drive in obedience, and his tracking is very methodical. That being said, he has other issues, but is there a dog without at least a few? With choosing any puppy listen to what the breeder has to say. She knows her lines the best. Get references from other people that have dogs from there and pay attention to what they have accomplished with them. It's your first Sch dog, get a dog that shows some potential and go from there...you will grow and learn through the process. What you are looking for now in a dog may change as you grow as a trainer but you have to get started somewhere. Ps - my north American showline bitch titled away from her home field for her sch1, and has trailed at regionals. The 2 she did at home but on a new helper. It can be done, just depends how determined you are to succeed!! Great post! My male was also sired by a Bell'Lavoro dog, and his dam came from a breeding by John. K. So I wonder if that is going to make him a shitter or a good dog? LOL!! I wonder if I will only be able to trial him on home field?  What I have been told by experienced trainers, and what I see is that he is a very strong DOG with a ton of potential. The proof will be in the pudding I guess when I trail him, hopefully I don't screw up I think in general you have a much better chance of getting a dog well suited for Schutzhund from "working lines". But I totally disagree that if you got a dog from one of those kennels or a dog from euro. show lines you would have to trial on your home field. That's just silly talk.  I think it depends on the dog, the training, the handler and the breeding combination. I'm sure I'm leaving other things out. I do realize Thomas it's just your opinion like you said and I'm not trying to start an argument. Just stating my opinion to. |
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Post by tara on Feb 25, 2011 21:39:39 GMT -5
Thomas ~ I wasn't directing my last post to you! I appreciate your perspective on this. And I'm happy others who own dogs from the prospective kennels have shared their experiences & opinions. I have much to learn but for now I've taken both Cara & Bellavoros off my list. I think that stud dog Giovanni is a stunning and acomplished boy but his early death worries me, seeing as how half of his lineage is Cara ... But with that I'm hearing that all the health testing still doesn't guarantee you a long-lived Dobe  Why couldn't I have fallen in love with another breed! Thanks everyone |
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Post by cashmando1 on Feb 25, 2011 22:02:11 GMT -5
Thomas ~ I wasn't directing my last post to you! I appreciate your perspective on this. And I'm happy others who own dogs from the prospective kennels have shared their experiences & opinions. I have much to learn but for now I've taken both Cara & Bellavoros off my list. I think that stud dog Giovanni is a stunning and acomplished boy but his early death worries me, seeing as how half of his lineage is Cara ... But with that I'm hearing that all the health testing still doesn't guarantee you a long-lived Dobe Why couldn't I have fallen in love with another breed! Thanks everyone I didn't get my boy from either one of those kennels, he came from Terri Clary at Dobermann's de Tejas. But he was sired by Gio. Why would you be worried about him or any dogs in his pedigree? Gio's death was caused by Ehrlichiosis, bacteria caused from a tick bite. And that was confirmed by a necropsy. Vicky at Bell'Lavoro also owns Citto Von Der Wudritz who apparently is a very nice working dog. Good luck in your search, I hope you find what you are looking for. |
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Post by tara on Feb 26, 2011 18:25:06 GMT -5
I did not see the necropsy report, did you? Maybe I'm worried because I inquired about littermates who have also expired suddenly. However he passed, it's a tragic loss but after being an LVT for 8 years in an area where close to 50% of our clients test + for a tick born disease and 35% of those have required treatment or even hospitalization, not one has dropped dead from the infections. Are there clinical reports of dogs going into CA from endocarditis brought about by Erlichiosis, yes, are they rare, very. Am I shocked when a young (esp male) Dobe drops dead, sadly no. I know many breeders are doing their best to health test & select their stock accordingly, nobody has a crystal ball as to how those breedings will pan out health wise, all you can do is try to stack the deck in your favor. I have LOTS of homework to do.
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Post by sonterra on Feb 27, 2011 0:19:02 GMT -5
Tara, I don't know much about either of the breeders you have been looking at, but I do own a male who was sired by a Bell'Lavoro male, and while I'm sure I could have found a better dog elsewhere, he's my dog and I love him. I have worked extensively with Tamara and her dogs, and have seen Ike worked from puppyhood until now. He is solid working dobe, with a fabulous temperment and very willing attitude. I have seen him worked on a sleeve, and this dog has also worked with my of the french ring trainers I have brought in, on the suit as well (including one of the best french decoys - Jean Marc Alan - who saw great promise in him). Switching with little effort and always working with great enthusiasm. He has a great big heart for his owner and gives a full 100% everytime he trains. Tamara and Ike are going to be very competitve in schutzhund, and let me be clear, this dog does NOT need to be on his home field or his own helper to kick ass!!!! There are quite a few good breeders stateside... One I have been impressed with everytime I see her was bred by "our" own Erynn of Von Luka kennels. We have a bitch puppy from her last litter out of eva and lorna o'connor's Cowboy, training in agility up here in Edmonton. GREAT PUPPY!!! Man if her owner wanted to do ring or sch this little girl would excel!! She has brought this puppy out to a couple of our events, and I have liked her since I very first saw her. Erynn is titling her own dogs, is dedicated to health and out there working her own dogs. Another breeder I would look at is Teja (Terri Clay) in Texas. She has done a fabulous job of getting her dogs into different venues and trying new sports, with excellent results! French ring brevet, mondio ring 1, sch 3, PSA. KUDOS to this breeder!! Vom Zenhof, Swiftrun, Masaya. Find a puppy out of Ceaser v pontiffhaus, I bet that puppy will blow your socks off (if they are out there yet!) . Kaz puppies too! Vadims girl buffy is wowing me these days. Josh Coats female Priska, I have heard is a ubber cool bitch! Andy has a male puppy from dede, out of zarek that looks very promising. There are good quality puppies out there that will title and get you into schutzhund training and competition. John and Wendy are no doubt high high quality dobe breeders, hands down. But the average person may not be able to handling a dog as high in drive as they breed. There are a great deal of super breeders in europe, breeders whom really care for the breed, as a working dog. There are also some very slick marketing people over there (as well as here). Just talk to people... get in chat and throw ideas out there, get to know people. Most important tho is to figure out what you want and what you can handle. Tamara McIntosh |
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For this reason, one of the breeders I was going to visit is crossed off my list. Moving on ....
What I have been told by experienced trainers, and what I see is that he is a very strong DOG with a ton of potential. The proof will be in the pudding I guess when I trail him, hopefully I don't screw up 
I think it depends on the dog, the training, the handler and the breeding combination. I'm sure I'm leaving other things out. 
Why couldn't I have fallen in love with another breed!
