To Quit or Continue

[acorn]

Jan 19, 2011 14:06:02 GMT -5 Von said:

So whats up with the dog? What evaluations have been done and what are your trainers suggesting. Von

Hey Von,
I think you are directing this question to me and why I started this post?

I had another trainer evaluate my dog. He said that he has good drives, and if I put in the time I should be able to his BH next year and at least get him to a SchH 1.

It was great advice to see another trainer. I'm am really happy that I did. It definitely brought some things to light (both strengths or weaknesses.) But after reading Steve's post, I wonder if I should even bother to work my dog. I know he's not the "best available dog" for the sport.

[aweaver]

My perspective is probably different from most. I own a dog who I got from a shelter at 13 months old and was able to title her to IPO3 this past year. While I absolutely agree that genetics plays a huge roll in the dog's natural ability (and thus went looking for specific things when I bought my puppy this summer), it has been proven to me over the past 5 years of working my current competition dog that "correct" training can enhance that natural ability and (let's nicely call it) not so "correct" training absolutely hinders it. It still amazes me to see what can be done with a not so strong dog and a novice handler with some patience and knowledge applied.

I've never really liked the breed vs breed discussions. What makes my dog better than a GSD? Nothing, except this is the breed that I love. My relationship with my dog is such that she will do anything I can train her to do. I am the limiting factor. Could I have done the same thing with a GSD or mal? Sure, but I won't own one. And I absolutely do not expect the GSD owners who I train with to suddenly give up their breed and get a dobermann. Who's dog is better on the field? Well, since it's 10+ of them and 1 of me, it's a little difficult to compare, but my little shelter dog definitely holds her own.

So, I will leave the breed discussion/dissection for others, but I definitely can endorse the idea that training & handling play just as important part in the outcome (however defined) as genetics do.

Alissa

[Von]

I think thats great!!!!! Finding what your dog is good at makes you a great owner!!! Ever dog is different and they all can perform but they have different degrees to their abilities. As for the old negative talk about a Dobermann training in Sch. who gives a crap what others think, its none of their business!!!! I'm not sure when Sch. became a sport but we used it as a trail for GSD to see who might be capable of police work, plenty failed hahaha!!!! So I'm not sure what the GSD people are yaking about especialy today I hear their breed is even weaker than in the 60s. But no matter, do what you want to do just make sure your dog has signed in for it 100%. A Dobermann doesn't have to excell at Sch. anyways its a trail for another breed, the Dobermann is a PP dog, on leash by your side, working 180 degrees and 360 if its really good hahahaha!!!!! So do what you want and to hell with the rest, hail to the Devil Dogs!!! Von

[aweaver]

Thanks for the encouragement! I don't mean to make it sound like IPO shouldn't still be used as a breeding test. I definitely believe it should. I enjoy this breed for all of it's qualities, including it's ability as a protection dog. If a dobermann is devoid of it's protective nature, it is no longer a dobermann.

All I meant to point out is that even the best bred dogs can be damaged by bad training/handling and the reverse is also true, not so well bred dogs (like my girl) can be bolstered by the right training/handling. What you see on the field is not all genetic.

Alissa

[rosamburg]

I did not mean to imply that people should not work and show their dogs if they are not super dogs. I see it as a process. As a handler gains experience and hopefully continues to set higher goals for themselves then they can be better educated when it is time for a future dog. Everyone has to start somewhere. If you are having fun and gaining experience then that is more than 99% of the people out there. I also recognize that not everyone has the same goals.

[rosamburg]

Vadim, in regards to your earlier post: There are some pretty damn good GSD's in my neck of the woods. When I was trying to find a stud dog a few years ago. I went to several notable clubs in Germany which are the home clubs of some of the top Dobermann breeders and some handlers of some pretty famous working Dobermann's in our breeds recent history.

There are 10 male GSD's at my club who would be as good or better than really any of the best dogs I saw.

I like the Dobermann breed and plan to stick with it. But I really believe that in order to improve the breed we have to be completely honest in our appraisal of where we are at.

[Vadim]

"But I really believe that in order to improve the breed we have to be completely honest in our appraisal of where we are at. "

Agree totally, just think we need to shoot higher then the GSD....

[aweaver]

"Agree totally, just think we need to shoot higher then the GSD.... "


I love this and completely agree!!

[vrulli]

Thank you Rosamburg (and others) for your posts, I enjoy reading them and getting insight and opinions from other doberman owners too.

Vadim, I agree as well... Thoughts of the GSD immediately conjure up visions of this big lumbering dog hanging on a schutzhund sleeve. That’s what we should strive for??

On that same note, I’ve seen very nice shepherds and I admire a talented dog no matter what breed.

As long as the subject has turned to what the doberman should be, my opinion would be first HEALTH, attention to strong nerves, enhance terrier tenacity, drive, athleticism, and medium size and structure. Some may want to add more but these qualities in my mind are what makes a doberman unique to other working breeds!

[rosamburg]

I am finding it very interesting the perspective readers here have of the GSD. You folks must be seeing something very different in GSD's than what I am seeing on a regular basis. I love the Dobermann breed and strive to put the best foot forward. But what I see are some very powerful, high drive/high temperament GSD's.

Then again the West Coast GS Schutzhund Club (WCGSSC) is very competitive, and there is not one single show dog. Last year out of 40 clubs and 500 members in Canada, 3 of the 5 world team members were from the WCGSSC. At the Nationals there were about 30 Sch3 entries and 10 were from WC. In terms of size of dogs, most would have to also be considered medium build though there are a few males that might weigh out at 90Lbs.

On the other hand I can see where people might be coming from because I have visited a number of clubs, and some of the GSD's I see there are not overly impressive. In many cases the training is crap as well. There is a much bigger split in the breed, and show-line GSD can be a pretty soft and low temperament dog.

BTW in Canada, the German Shepherd National Schutzhund Championship is open to all breeds. Actually a few years back Brian Currey took second on the podium with his Bouvier (The same dog he won the Bouvier worlds with).

I think we should start a new post in a different thread, on what we would like to see in terms of development of the breed.

I am working two dogs at the moment, a 26 month old male out of my breeding, and an 18 month old female, Cairo vom Schattenfell. She has a lot of spark and I am happy with her progress and her potential. Lance Collins likes her, and that says something.