To Quit or Continue

[John K]

Acorn, I would stop doing whatever you're doing in obedience.....

My first experience with a obedience trainer was terrible but I was too green to know any different. Whenever the trainer would release their dog after demonstrating the exercise, it would run under the picnic table and stay there until the trainer forced it out for the next demonstration....just because you pay them doesn't mean it's right.....

Describe what you're doing in obedience so some people on the forum can help.....

John K.

[jonny]

Dec 22, 2010 13:53:53 GMT -5 acorn said:

Well I don't know what to do now. My dog had some kind of nervous break down/panic attack/freak out the other night. We were at the obedience training school, and all of the sudden he just wanted to get the hell out of there. I tried to restrain him and he nearly dragged me down. Then when I had ahold of him, he started flailing and making a really high pitched bark/growl. I have never seen him act like that before, and I'm not sure what triggered it. Now I really feel like I should second guess continuing with the PP training. Even though he is completely confident and forward in PP training, should I really be giving that training to a dog who just suddenly freaked out over god knows what?? Argh!

Stop the training now!!!! Do not continue to put pressure on the dog. This is very typically seen in dobes with nerve issues. Alot of dobes I see in the vet clinic shut down or show signs of about to 'lose it'. They can't handle the pressure whether it is from a helper, screeching car tires, fireworks, or even falling into a blackberry bush.

I experienced this the other day when I took my dog out camping. I decided then and there that I will not attempt to do the protection in SCH with him.

Sure he may recover ie he is fine in 5mins maybe hour or longer later etc but they will shut down again when pressure is put back on them.

Its a big eye opener when it happens and you realise how bad the nerve problems are in the breed.

I am looking to get a new puppy from a working breeder in a few months. He is doing an AI from a really good male stored from about 30 years ago. I will be doing some serious testing of the female and his other males from this line and give it one last try. If it doesn't work out I will be going to another breed. Lifes too short.

Sorry for the grim attitude but Im trying to deal with this myself lately.

J

[acorn]

Thanks for the advice. I haven't mentioned this to my PP trainer yet, so I will see what he thinks when I tell him what happened. Up until now my dog has not displayed any signs of being unstable in any kind of situation. He is fine with gun shots, crowds, traffic, etc. etc. I really don't know where this sudden outburst came from, but it makes me feel like I can't trust him 100%. There was no agression involved, but I know things like this can turn into agression and I don't want to risk that.

I am definitely going to stick with the OB, which I have been spending most of my time on with him. But this situation happened at the OB center, and I hope he doesn't have some sort of negative aversion to the place now. This just really boggles my mind. He is 18mo... I figured any kind of random displays of strange behavior would be over by now.

[jonny]

Dec 23, 2010 10:57:13 GMT -5 acorn said:

I really don't know where this sudden outburst came from, but it makes me feel like I can't trust him 100%. There was no agression involved, but I know things like this can turn into agression and I don't want to risk that.

But this situation happened at the OB center, and I hope he doesn't have some sort of negative aversion to the place now. This just really boggles my mind.

Yeah its really hard to trust a dog and know how it is going to react after that. I know how u feel.

It is highly likely it doesn't enjoy something at the OB field or possibly PP training has put stress on his nervous system.
How do you train obedience? Motivational techniques?
What corrections do you use? Pinch, choker or just harsh verbal corrections?

With the table training what is the technique used to get a bite out of the dog? Are you pressuring the dog to go into defence and bite? This has known to destroy nervy dogs. The dog needs to be confident or the trainer has to be able to read the dog really well and make sure its building the dog rather than pushing it into submission.

[dobermanman]

Acorn,

What do you expect your PP trainer is going to tell you?
Keep doing PP with a dog that freaks out during obedience?
I had a bad feeling when you mentioned you were doing table work with your dog. I can count the people who know how to use a table on one hand. From the description you've given of your dog, IMO he is more likely to bite you or an innocent bystander then protect you. Do yourself a favor, let this dobermann become a regular pet and either get a can of mace or a firearm for protection.

[aweaver]

Acorn,
I worked with Lance, past tense and never again. While I am uncomfortable saying anything bad about anyone in a public forum, it scares me to read that there are people sending "newbies" to him. I trained with him when I was new to the sport and thankfully learned better, but not soon enough. He will not develop your dog unless the dog is really strong. Please PM me if you want more information. I could have some suggestions of other trainers in the area that could help you, once I know exactly what you are looking for.
Alissa

[Anne Conroy]

Sadly it seems that there is a general lack of ability of people to train dobermans in sport in the US. Of course, I am not saying that there are not good trainers across the country, but jeez --

I was just complaining to a big name competitor and professional trainer about the lack of understanding of relatively simple training concepts. Its not just our breed, but the doberman learns so quickly, and has that nerve edge, that they seem to pay a higher price.

So sad -- so sad -- so sad ---

It would be pretty interesting if someone put together a place that offered training reviews -- by us for us. Kind of like book reviews. Maybe even a 1-5 stars --

ac

[Vadim]

Hi Anne,

We have the Dobermann Friendly club listing section here in the forum. Perhaps I could start a sub forum to that section for training reviews that will only be accesible to registered forum members.

Would love to hear from the forum if there is an interest for this?

[acorn]

That sounds like a great idea.

When I was scouting out trainers last summer, it was nearly impossible to find any doberman friendly trainers or clubs. I find reviews to be very helpful, and I am sure it can help newbies start out on the right foot.

[Anne Conroy]

A great idea!!

I don't think "Dobe friendly" and "quality training" are the same thing. You might have one but not the other!! Or neither!!

And, what do these terms mean?? That would need to be clear.

Maybe people can say what factors, a trainer - club - competitor -- or what ever, ought to be rated on.

Also, what is the perspective of the person doing the rating -- mine might be different from yours -- and that is ok. Just needs to be clear.

Also, there is alot to be learned from people from different dog sports.

[vrulli]

I've always been puzzled by this enigma... what makes training a doberman different from other breeds?

Let's say the dog is basically cut out for sport, no major baggage, has good balanced drives, etc.

It is still a DOG right?

Curious what other doberman handlers feel is vital to successful training? (when I say successful I mean competing)

Thank you

[acorn]

I am sure others will chime in from their own experience, etc. but this is a good article on the subject.

www.johnsoaresk9training.com/info/dobermanarticle.html

[rosamburg]

As I read the input from various members my thoughts kind of went to the fact that like most things in life, it is not always so black and white. There are many shades of gray.

The point about Doberman friendly clubs vs quality training is kind of interesting. I am going to share my own experience in an attempt to delve into some of the shades of gray. I have the perspective of training a dobermann at an almost exclusively GSD club. I am sure that many people on the forum who train in any sport are in similar circumstances. Since John K moved to N. Carolina I am the only Dobermann handler at the club. The name of the club where I train is the West Coast German Shepherd Schutzhund Club. One would think that looking at the name that the members there would tend to have a strong affinity for the GSD breed. This is true. The training director, has a reputation (warranted or not) in the sport for being anti-"alternative breed". I think it is quite natural for people who own and handle the GSD to believe it is a better working dog than a Dobermann. As Dobermann owners I think unless we want to wear blinders we have to accept the fact in nearly every single case the West German working line GSD is a superior working dog than nearly every Dobermann in existance. Why should we as Dobermann people expect a GSD person to believe differently?

I think many Doberman handlers wear blinders or rose colored glasses in regards to the actual quality of their dog. When they don't receive the same kind of acknowledgment regarding their dog they then say the club or TD is anti-Dobermann or anti-alternative breed.

I think we have to become proactive into changing the status of the breed and the perspective that is held. How do we do this?
1. Committing to training at the highest level we possibly can. If the methods are not producing results then we need to find the answers, that WILL produce results. The best trainers in the world did not start out that way. It took hard work, determination and perseverance. For many of them it meant searching out new ways to improve their training ability and knowledge. If we only take direction from mediocre trainers and utilize mediocre methods and we will get mediocre results at best.
2. Do the research and learn about Dobermann blood lines and only put our time and energy into obtaining, training and competing with the best available dogs.
3. Make breeding decisions based on what is most likely to produced strong working dogs with balanced drive and temperament. This may mean that we bypass the latest flavor of the day and choose what is the best match for our particular bitch's. To do this we have to take off the rose-colored glasses and look at the strengths and weakness of the bitch. If we don't have the kind of knowledge necessary then we need to get guidance by people who do have this knowledge.

[Von]

So whats up with the dog? What evaluations have been done and what are your trainers suggesting. Von

[Vadim]

steve

Steve I mostly agree with your post and the majority of your points. However I disagree with the quote below.

Perhaps it is a difference in view point as you and I compete in different sports. However I do not believe "in nearly every single case the West German working line GSD is a superior working dog than nearly every Dobermann in existance."

In general I see the GSD as a breed in decline. In the sports I have competed in (PSA, FR) I have never seen a GSD win anything. Even in Schutzhund GSD handlers work hard not to compete with Malinois because when they do, they inevitably loose.

In almost everycase the GSD dog's entries are almost non existant, they can't jump the required heights and those that can break down phisically.

If comparing West German working line GSD to all Dobermanns including American show lines, perhaps you are correct.

But when comparing the Working GSD to the Working Euro Dobermann my experience does not show near the delta in quality of worker you seem to have seen.