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Post by acorn on Nov 23, 2010 11:31:07 GMT -5
Hello. I am new to posting here, and new to Schutz.
I have been training in protection for about 2 months now, and have seen a vast improvement in my 17mo old during that time. But I still worry that he does not have what it takes. I would assume that my trainer would tell me if that was the case, but then again, he gets paid for me to continue...
Are there any tell-tale signs that I can look for that will tell me that he is just not cut out for protection sports? As much as I love working with him, I don't want to spend all of this time and money if it's going to be a waste. I could always change his focus to OB or Agility, etc. and I will eventually get another puppy, and raise the next one as a working puppy from day one.
Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
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Post by dobebob on Nov 23, 2010 14:29:43 GMT -5
Tell us what your dog is doing in the protection work- then we may be able to offer advice...
Perhaps you could post some video- that would be even more helpful.
Your dog has only 2 months experience so it's early to see lot's of developement, but;
The dog should show eagerness to work...
Intensity towards the helper....
Full mouth, calm grips....
Willingness to work away from you with confidence....
....and advance on the helper....[probably a bit too soon to expect this]
Just for starters.....
Also- are there any other clubs nearby where you could take your dog to be worked safely?
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Post by acorn on Nov 23, 2010 15:10:02 GMT -5
We did table work for about 5 weeks, and now on the floor for the last 3.
He seems to do all of these:
Yes-The dog should show eagerness to work...
Yes-Intensity towards the helper....
Not Yet-Full mouth, calm grips....
Yes-Willingness to work away from you with confidence....
Yes-....and advance on the helper....
I think he does fine with the last two... although the helper caught him turn his back last time, and startled him. Then he (the dog) came back to my side rather than out at the end of the lead. I thought that showed a bit of insecurity.
I don't understand your question though "Also- are there any other clubs nearby where you could take your dog to be worked safely?"
The trainer we have now is one of the best in the region... Is there a reason that I would want to go somewhere else?
Thanks!
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Post by dobermanman on Nov 23, 2010 23:36:41 GMT -5
The trainer we have now is one of the best in the region... Is there a reason that I would want to go somewhere else?
>If I were you I'd go to a couple of Schutzhund Clubs and get an evaluation from
>someone you're NOT paying. I 'd also be real skeptical of doing table work with a 17 month old
>Dobermann male. There are very few trainers that really know how to properly use a table without
>over stressing a dog.
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Post by dobebob on Nov 24, 2010 22:46:25 GMT -5
Hi "acorn,"
You expressed some "concern" about your helper being paid by you, and so perhaps not being straight with you about how your dog was doing.
Dobermanman sees it as I do- try to get to work with another safe helper if you can....
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Post by acorn on Nov 29, 2010 0:40:19 GMT -5
I did not pay the trainer for the initial evaluation, in which he did say that my dog had potential, but I understand what you are suggesting. Last week I was speaking to another Dobe owner in the class who told me that my dog was "out of his league because he is American." I am most likely going to go back to focusing on obedience with this dog, and look for a working dog from a good line to continue Schutz with.
Is there any harm in starting protection training, and not going all the way? I don't see that it has changed any behaviors.
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Post by dobebob on Nov 30, 2010 14:50:36 GMT -5
The statement that "your dog is out of his league because he's American" is not necessarily true - IMHO. While that might generally be accurate it is not absolute, I've seen quite a few "American" dogs that could do the work- perhaps not at a "podium" level, but......
It could be just someone elses "ego" based opinion "my dog is better than your dog..."
As to your question "is there any harm.... etc."- well that depends on the quality of the protection training, the stability of the dog, and other factors...... not easy to answer, but if the dog seems to be able to "stand up' to the work as you've indicated thus far, then it's likely not a huge concern.
The big concern is- it is not fair to the helper/ training director to put in lots of time working your dog, and coaching you, if you're not going to "see it through."
If you have any apprehension about devoting time and lots of work to this, and seeing it through, then stop now.
JMHO
I say again- why not try to go to another club just to get another evaluation??
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Post by dobermanman on Nov 30, 2010 20:54:52 GMT -5
I did not pay the trainer for the initial evaluation, in which he did say that my dog had potential, but I understand what you are suggesting. Last week I was speaking to another Dobe owner in the class who told me that my dog was "out of his league because he is American." I am most likely going to go back to focusing on obedience with this dog, and look for a working dog from a good line to continue Schutz with. Is there any harm in starting protection training, and not going all the way? I don't see that it has changed any behaviors. All paid "trainers" do free evaluations and every dog they "evaluate" have "potential" :-) That's how they make their living. Find a Schutzhund club with other Dobermann owners. You wouldn't do any harm with proper protection work. I'm not sure if table training at this point or with your dog is the way to go? |
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Post by acorn on Dec 1, 2010 16:10:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the helpful responses.
I am awaiting a phone call from a local Schutz club, whose president happens to be a Dobe breeder. I think establishing these kinds of relationships will help me continue (or not) with my current dog, and certainly be able to move forward the way I would like to with my next dog.
I have 100% confidence in the trainer that I am working with now. He does a very, very low stress approach to the table work, and all work he has done with my dog. Everything down to subtle eye contact was used as a training tool. My dog doesn't necessarily like the table, but he does not shy away from it, and is still willing to jump up on it....good sign to me.
I definitely don't want to waste anyone's time. For now I will continue. It is a good learning experience for me, and for my dog. Thanks for your help.
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Post by anneconroy on Dec 7, 2010 11:55:48 GMT -5
Hi -- I've noticed that you haven't mentioned names -- there are LOTS of Doberman breeders that may not be the best source of information about your dog. In your area, are there any people that have successfully trained and trialed with at least one doberman? Find those people and ask them if they will evaluate your dog -- or be present when you have your dog worked.
IMO that is the best way to get good information about you dog.
BTW: the dog is just on variable -- your experience is another, your ability to learn to teach your dog is another, the quality of the helper (with dobermans) is another, your home environment is another, your relationship with the dog is another -- what I am trying to get at is your dog's performance is related to ALL of these. This means that your dog might be able to do the work with you and this helper -- or your dog might be able to do the work with a different handler and this helper, or your dog might be able to do the work with you having a handler coach and this helper, or your dog might be able to do the work with you and a different helper . . .etc, etc, --
A guess in short that the dog is only one part of the equation for success. That being said -- usually a higher quality dog equals better performance. BUT, if you don't know how to teach that super dog then the quality of the dog might not have as big of impact on the outcome.
Remember that YOU can improve your teaching and handling skills with most dogs. You might want to keep that in mind as you decide what to do.
Good luck
anne conroy
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Post by symmetrydobes on Dec 7, 2010 13:49:10 GMT -5
I think you have to commit to doing the training to see if your dog really does have any ability for the sport.
I personally started with a show line Doberman; I was told by my club TD that she likely would never do the work, but as Anne stated in her last post, the dog is only one variable.
At the time I couldn't change the dog so I changed other variables in order to work with what she had to offer. I found a new helper and a different method of training and a better support group than what I had. In two short summers of training she is now a Sch2.
Long story sorta short....ya gotta put the time in, the only way to see if your dog can do it is to TRY. Be realistic about your goals with this dog and use him as a learning tool for dogs to come. Good luck!
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Post by acorn on Dec 10, 2010 10:50:04 GMT -5
I don't always like to name names in public posts, but I will. My trainer is Lance Woodley who is the TD for the Inner City Schutzhund Club. We have 6 Dobes in out PP class, which usually out numbers the GSDs. He is an incredible trainer who has been training and competing for about 25 years.
The breeder I spoke of is the TD & Pres of a different Schutz club. I have not asked her advice about training my own dog. I am only interested in a puppy from her next litter, and yes she trials her dogs.
Trust me, I am doing my homework! I really admire Michael Ellis and his style of teaching, and have many of his training DVDs. I am learning as much as I can from watching other trainers to make sure I do everything right, which is also why I have had 5 different obedience trainers in the last year. I am really picking up what I like and don't like.
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Von
Puppy
Posts: 36
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Post by Von on Dec 11, 2010 12:42:13 GMT -5
In regards to your trainer Mr. Woodley, I have suggested him to people in the Mass. area for quite some time and have never recieved a negative comment about his methods or his character. After reading your initial thread you seem to have more questions and even doubts about your decision to continue in the sport . If the dog is from Mars and can do the tasks involved and do them respectably and enjoys the training why not continue? Are you concerned with overall performance and being able to accumulate high scores? I am not a Sch. trainer, I am or was a PP trainer and the first and one of the most important lessons a trainer in any venue learns is evaluations. I can gain alot of information on my first evaluation of a dog entering PP training but to say I know exactly how the dog will be classified is a bit presumptuous on my part. I'll suggest that your paying for your education right now. Your broadening your original idea of the sport and learning valuable lessons that take time to digest. Theres nothing wrong with observing other trainers and different methods and matching a puppy from a breeder that employs a certain method that you feel comfortable with and has had success with said techniques might be ideal for you to consider in the future. The top trainers with dogs from the top kennels aren't calling home with 300 scores so if your American bred dog is happy, learning and capable of pewrforming the tasks at hand then have fun with her. In PP not every dog is a fight to the death animal but not everyone needs that type of dog. Good luck, and concentrate on what makes her the best she can be, in turn that makes you the best owner you can be. "train em up" Von.
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Post by acorn on Dec 22, 2010 13:53:53 GMT -5
Well I don't know what to do now. My dog had some kind of nervous break down/panic attack/freak out the other night. We were at the obedience training school, and all of the sudden he just wanted to get the hell out of there. I tried to restrain him and he nearly dragged me down. Then when I had ahold of him, he started flailing and making a really high pitched bark/growl. I have never seen him act like that before, and I'm not sure what triggered it. Now I really feel like I should second guess continuing with the PP training. Even though he is completely confident and forward in PP training, should I really be giving that training to a dog who just suddenly freaked out over god knows what?? Argh!
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Post by dobermanman on Dec 22, 2010 16:02:29 GMT -5
QUIT what ever you're doing. Unless your dog is a freak of nature, the panic attack didn't come out of the blue. Nothing against your trainer (I don't know him) but the training is obviously not appropriate for this dog. If you want to do something with the dog, try agility or ob or rally NOT anything involving protection (personal or sport). I'd stick with clicker/marker training. Good Luck
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