2010 ADA ZTP helper work

[jasonfarrish]

LRadcliffe I would like to know what you thought of the helper work in the video I posted. Here it is again:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1PNT9zrdB4

[LRadcliffe]

Does anyone know about the ZTP in new york?? In the video's that were posted on this forum, I noticed that some of the dogs were wearing harnesses and it looks like Gamy Burgstatte has a agitation collar on? did these dogs wear their "protection gear" for the temprement part also?? I asked Zorzi if I would be able to put my young males aggitation collar on before the bite work, in front of everyone when asked if we had any questions. And got a "no" Beside's my male not having his handler give his "watch out" my mistake, had he had his collar put on he would have been in drive. For some reason I thought I would have that option too?? another mistake on my part. I have not seen any german video's of ZTP's were the dogs do have on any kind of "protection gear" I thought It must be a ADA thing. But then I was told by Zorzi 5 months prior that a BH was not required for a ZTP in the USA like it is germany. I got a call from Zorzi a week after I sent in my ZTP entry and was told the rules had changed and now a BH was required! we had got our BH 2 weekends prior to the deadline for the ZTP and he seemed to be very suprized! I told him I would send a copy of my USA score book. When the rules are changed for different people and dogs there is no chance for a fair playing field, and when people work very hard to train their dogs for IPO they deserve it, even if they just get out there and do it with a lousy score. But at this point I am not supized in the least about ADA. I do notice on their website that Zorzi finally 2 years after he got a ZTP on his male, got a BH on him at this trial. I like to congratulate him and his dog

[LRadcliffe]

Jason Farrish, I think I know were you are trying to go with this!! make up your own mind on this one and feel free to think what you want ;) in other words knock your self out here!!! but then we should all know what you think about it. Even though I personally don't have a clue who you are.

[rasmuscm]

Also - another point to all this. A SchH III dog doing a ZTP is entirely different than a schH nothing or a SchH I dog doing a ZTP. The SchH III dog has had several opportunities to be in trial situations, and so has his handler. A young dog who knows not what to expect, with a handler who also is not sure what the rules of the game are, does not make for the strongest contestant. Live and learn is the motto.

[jasonfarrish]

"Even though I personally don't have a clue who you are. "

Try google.

[LRadcliffe]

WOW very, very, impressive Jason!! to say the least. I wish you much continued success and fun in the sport!! super videos!!

[jasonfarrish]

Since I havent seen any videos of the unsafe helper work I wanted to get your opinion on the helper work for the video I posted. To many people involved in working dogs that helper work was acceptable and fair. If you feel the helper work was too weak I would like to know, if you feel the helper work was fair let me know.

I would love to see video of the unsafe helper work for comparison. If you work dogs hard you will have injuries if the Dobermann cannot endure hard helper work perhaps it is not built properly for a working dog. For too long people have bred Dobermanns using their eyes instead of actual hard work. I think structuraly the breed has suffered.

Thank you for your compliments.

[LRadcliffe]

I thought it was a joke, I can assure you my dog's lines have been bred to work and for sport, they are not show. They are built properly for bite work and the have a long history of proving that. I think the breed has suffered too. You are welcome.

[Nellie]

Jul 27, 2010 16:34:27 GMT -5 jasonfarrish said:

I think structuraly the breed has suffered.

AMEN!!!!!

Nellie

[patrick]

Jul 24, 2010 14:30:16 GMT -5 jasonfarrish said:

LRadcliffe I would like to know what you thought of the helper work in the video I posted. Here it is again:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1PNT9zrdB4

Luckily that judge didn't approach the dog too quickly when he was separated from his handler on the long leash or we wouldn't have seen the helper in the movie.

I believe that in the last few years a ztp has lost it's value as it should be. More and more helpers are instructed by the judge to take it easy on the protection part and then we all wonder why the dobermann as a workingbreed is getting weaker and weaker. Sad but true

I once entered a ztp in the beginning of the nineties which was judged by Ottmar Vogel. Half of the dogs failed and some of these dogs were better than some of the dogs who succeed in these days.

[Marylyn]

>>17) Leather collar and harness are permissible for the manwork<< Page 8 of the ZTP regulations online from March 2009:

www.dobermann.ee/popFile.php?file=244

None of us knew we could use harness or wide collar for the manwork until that morning. Given that opportunity, those of us with truly novice dogs opted for the harness.

[LRadcliffe]

"Regulations for ZTP" #8 The assalant THREATENS THE DOG ONLY AFTER THE DOG HAS BITTEN THE SLEEVE. this is why I never saw helper-work like this for a ZTP. There are rules! My dog was attacked with stick threats as he was charged right out of the blind. #8 if the dog COUNTERS THE ATTACK then the assailent threatens the dog. When my dog came around to strike and bite the sleeve the helper let go of the sleeve. Did he get a fair ZTP assesment? no, I don't think so. Did every dog that engaged the helper yelp or get hurt that weekend? yes although no lasting inguries. Is sleeve presentation important? it is to me. Had I known that the "attack on the handler" could be like the kind that used to be in Shutzhund and bring that kind of pressure out of the blind would I have entered my 17 month old male? no his neck for one thing has not developed to a adult male. Do I blame anyone for his reaction to the "attack on the handler" no, will I train for a bad sleeve presentaion? duh, from everything I saw from my dog that weekend it showed me he has calm nerves as I have seen and it takes a lot to make him mad! is he a good one? well I think so!! The video of the "tie out" and the "attack on the helper" is posted on his page Axel Von Spellen at www.workingdog.eu for anyone interested. The sound is turned down, and yes Chris "live and learn is a motto I will more than likely keep telling myself as we move forward

[elucas]

Lisa,

I am sorry you feel as though you have been shafted at the show/trial. I was hoping this thread would kind of die out though as I believe this to be a demonstration of some really bad sportsmanship by you. You don’t like how the judge was ordering the helper? Fine. Don’t go back to another show. To completely condemn the whole thing is disrespectful to everyone who was there. That was the first ZTP that I had been to, but from the videos I saw, it seemed to run in a similar manner. I knew that the teeth would be counted and checked thoroughly so I made sure to have people check my own dog’s teeth to make sure she was comfortable with it prior to entering. I even knew that the judge would use a finger to hold her tongue down to look in the back.

I didn’t enter the ZTP, but from the videos I have seen on youtube, this one looked appropriate with regards to exercises. In the videos, the handlers are helping their dogs in the attack phase essentially letting them know that a helper was coming. For young dogs like yours, it is probably pretty important to get their minds on the game. To older or sharper dogs, perhaps it isn’t needed as much. Do you feel that if your dog was in protection mode and ready he would have been chased? If not, how is that the fault of the helper? If so, then perhaps we do need to rethink where the breed is and can go.

Here are a few of the videos I saw to help me prepare with what I would see. Some have the same judge that was there (Daube). The ZTPs look similar to the one held in WA.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgqwpSmDCdU&feature=related
Shows a stick threat on attack.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OSbyZip_HE
Another showing a stick threat on attack.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFRMsEs-6e0
And one more.

All the dogs know a helper is coming. All the handlers are giving cues.

Last point is that if I enter a SchH trial and I fail tracking… I will show up for obedience and protection. That is what is expected. I did fail tracking once (well, more than once, lol) where the tracks were laid by different layers. The ones laid by one layer failed, the ones laid by the other passed. 100%. I didn’t complain. A better prepared dog would have passed. If I had trained more, then my dog would have fared better regardless of condition or track lay. I don’t know the exact rules of ADA, but I am not surprised that a pull from what you were entered for (aside from a vet excuse) would land you in hot water. If excused for poor sportsmanship in USA, the handler may be banned for a time or possibly forever.

Erynn

[LRadcliffe]

Erin, you and I do not look at helper work the same way, I have seen those video's they do not look anything like mine, but they do look like most ZTP's sorry you can not tell the difference. I am happy for you that your female was fine with her teeth being checked, I have been in conformation classes before and always placed in 1st, and have a little idea of how it works and how to prepare a dog, so if you are thinking I don't know the difference in that and someone provoking my dog sorry. As far as sportsmanship goes I have never seen anything like the many things at the ADA that show bad sportsmanship, start with giving a IPO3 tropy to someone who did not earn it and just keep going from there. But then I would hate to put a damper on the whole event for everyone. The rules for USA which I am a member of are for a 3 faze working trial, not a conformation class. I did call the USA office to ask just because I thought it interesting that Roberto would throw it out there, and she laughed ;D so if you are insinuating I would drop out of a working trial keep trying it's not the same. I am done here posting on this now, I do want to thank all my german friends who see the video for what it is and have been supportive. They deal with ZTP's all the time unlike us here in the USA and know all about the politics that go along, and their emails make a difference to me, funny though the people here have there own spin on it too.

[hotschh3]

Lisa - Remember, Schutzhund is about testing temperament....

**edited due to forum rules as stated: "Personal attacks will not be tolerated"**

Poster if you have something to say do it in a manner that is not inflammatory.