|
|
Post by LRadcliffe on Jul 22, 2010 15:17:53 GMT -5
Chris, well said! all of your points here are right on. What I have said is that I have never seen anything like this "attack out of the blind" before even in the Korung video's. It would have been better if I had given my male his "watch out" but then again he could have been hurt with that kind of straight forward jamm right into the dog. We did practice on blind attacks out of bushes and hedges but the helper came out straight so the dog had a chance to see. My male is young and I blame no one. The way the long bite was presented is another facter with the dog coming down hard to the ground on it's sholder. After the judge came out to give the helper a lesson or show him how to do it, what ever the judge was telling and showing him might have made a difference. The helper does bring a lot to the table here too even though he is told what the judge wants. And what I saw was not a safe regard for the dogs. I am getting ready to do a youtube page Erin but if you can't wait I know Wendy taped it as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by John K. on Jul 22, 2010 22:46:21 GMT -5
Lisa, I'm sorry to hear that you and your dog did not have a positive outcome at the ADA event. I wasn't there so I don't know what all happened but I can feel for you.....
Regarding the helper work....I was in the same club as Mark for several years and we worked each others dogs on a regular basis. Again, I wasn't there to see any of the work but if I had a trial tomorrow, I would invite Mark to do the helper work. He has always done a great job at all of the trials I've seen him work. He does bring lots of pressure but that is just the way we cut our teeth in regards to trial/training helper work.
I would also like to say congrats to everyone that entered the event but if I were entered in the IPO trial and scored 71/71/81 and becoming the high scorer in any phase of the dogs that passed.....I would be pissed off that someone else, who's dog failed, would receive the High in anything trophy......never ever heard of that but whatever as it's become the dobermann way!
|
|
|
|
Post by jasonfarrish on Jul 23, 2010 1:13:47 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by rasmuscm on Jul 23, 2010 13:42:36 GMT -5
OMG. that's at another spectrum, for sure!
|
|
|
|
Post by LRadcliffe on Jul 23, 2010 14:05:07 GMT -5
Jeynie, ditto! ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by LRadcliffe on Jul 23, 2010 14:14:44 GMT -5
sorry, I wanted to post, Chris Ditto! ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeynie on Jul 23, 2010 15:34:42 GMT -5
Chris, what the heck is "spectrum"? Lisa, you said this back in April: I have been told that the helper for the west coast ADA ZTP's will be Mark Gommersal IMO he is very good and very safe also works dobermanns so will be good for our very fast ones  Had you seen Mark work dogs before you made that statement or was that just something you heard? I mean, to call out a helper publicly and say he's the "worst and most dangerous you've ever seen" after having called him "very good and very safe" is very contradictory. |
|
|
|
Post by Jeynie on Jul 23, 2010 15:46:53 GMT -5
...I would be pissed off that someone else, who's dog failed, would receive the High in anything trophy......never ever heard of that but whatever as it's become the dobermann way! Well, this ADA situation is tantamount to a back yard trial. Zorzi's personal relationships have endowed him from on high so his club has a paperwork link to Germany, but that doesn't make it credible. By the way, and hopefully those in the know will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Sieger/in sort of like points in Schutzhund trial? If you don't have x number of entries in the Championship Class then no award will be given? Can you win in a field of one? |
|
|
|
Post by L Radcliffe on Jul 23, 2010 16:50:59 GMT -5
OK, this is my last post, but I feel like I need to clarify for you. I did address it in my 1st post as one of the reasons I decided to post. You may want to read it again, though I understand it is very long! "ADA ZTP HELPER WORK" I said helper work, I am talking about the helper work in regards to this event. Nothing more. And it is my opinion. I went to Lance Collins work week in march. For a whole week with a "off breed" LOL. Mark is in that club and I think their main helper, I said I think! I saw him work dogs the whole week, I also saw him do a little bit at the WA. USA Regionals. What I saw then and what I saw last sat, well everyone knows IMO. As far as "extreme pressure on the dog" BRING IT ON in a safe way with regard for the dog. Too many times it is about "the helper" and not the dog. But that is a whole other topic. Also to anwser your last question. Mark told me himself at WW he would be doing the helper work at the ADA.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeynie on Jul 23, 2010 17:50:56 GMT -5
Lisa, to be clear, I'm not criticizing you and I'm glad that you've posted about your experience. By and large everything you're saying rings true to me given the nature of these ADA events. All I was getting at is maybe be careful about calling out a helper in public when perhaps the problem isn't the helper, but your point of view. After all, you saw Mark once before and you quite liked him. I know that you're working on your first Sch title and are new to the sport so maybe what you think you see isn't accurate.
I disagree with your point of view that dogs who struggle -- falling off the sleeve, failing to engage, getting bad grips, high-tailing it to the next county, etc. is "too many times" about the helper. It's more likely that the dogs are poorly trained, under-prepared and or incorrectly bred. Whenever you get off your home field, meaning not on your regular helper, you have to train for any and all eventualities and that should most definitely include different and awkward sleeve presentations.
Back to what I was saying up-thread about a dog getting High in Anything without having passed, I think it's particularly unfortunate that Lianne's Rottie wasn't given HIP. I get this feeling that that DV judge did not want to award High in Protection to a non-Doberman and as a result was unfair to the rightful recipient.
|
|
|
|
Post by LRadcliffe on Jul 23, 2010 18:19:14 GMT -5
Jeynie, while I am fairly new to the sport, almost 4 years compared to a lot of people here. I have been working on a Sch1 for what seems like a long time. My last male died suddenly at 22 months fairly close to when we would do our BH & Sch1 together. My female is another story!! I understand what you mean about "dogs who struggle" as I have seen a lot of this too LOL All the points you have made are very good and are not critizing, I realized my post would evoke a lot of other opinions here.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeynie on Jul 23, 2010 18:54:15 GMT -5
Lisa, did you post your video on YouTube yet?
|
|
|
|
Post by LRadcliffe on Jul 23, 2010 19:21:52 GMT -5
next week, I will put together a page, I will show the tie out and 'Attack on the handler" as you can tell I am not the most computer litirate and need some help with it. I am suprized it has not already shown up though. Well off to work with the dogs now and boy are we going to do some fun bite work tonight!!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Lorna OConnor on Jul 23, 2010 23:08:50 GMT -5
Cowboy has been extensively socialized since he was a baby and has no people or trust issues whatsoever. The dog has spent most of his early life around disabled folks in chairs, autistic children, etc., and his previous owners own young children. In fact, their 3 year old son could give him commands and play tug and fetch with him. He went into this ZTP completely cold. Never had he done this or the other exercises (aside from the courage test of course) in his life. So please don't tell me that the dog only nailed this exercise because he has some other problem. And Lisa, I'm sorry but Viggo did not come off the long bite and land on his shoulder due to Mark at all. I don't understand how you could even make that statement. He trains at our club and has had issues with this for a few months now. Danielle and Patrick and our helper have worked very hard with him to get him over this and learning to close his mouth in time. He trialed the week prior and nailed it. This day he didn't. But he didn't run away either. He got right back up and made the bite. This is a young handler with her first dog and she has done an amazing job with him. Long bite presentation on ZTP  If you all need to take away from the dogs to make yourselves feel better, so be it. There were things wrong with the trial for sure, but it wasn't the dogs that were in it and it wasn't for lack of a good - no, excellent helper. |
|
|
|
Post by LRadcliffe on Jul 24, 2010 4:05:29 GMT -5
Lorna, I don't think the quote here you mention is in reference to your dog, but some of the issues that one thinks about for the ZTP. I as I said did work on the "attack on the handler" and did factor in if I wanted to make my young male a biting machine and chance a problem on the isolation excersize. Of course that will all change for me now ;D Also about your statement that "cowboy" has never had any socialization issues is he the same Cowboy you needed to rehome due to aggression problems? "sport prospect availabe July 11th 2009" and "dominance & Aggression July 12th" were you say "my understanding is that he has growled at dogs too, he has growled at a couple of people too. He is a very dominate,protective type of dog" here on this forum? I am sorry but you said other things to me at the ZTP I have not posted here but when you ask me why I said what I saw on the tape of the dog [Viggio?] you are questioning my integrity, I have no idea what problems the dog may have had or been working on, or still has just what I see on the video, some of the things you keep throwing in here just don't ring right with me. Sorry though I may have this dog mixed up with another "cowboy" it does not change what I said about his ZTP I liked his bite work. I don't see any were here were anyone blames the dogs for anything.
|
|
