2010 ADA ZTP helper work

[LRadcliffe]

was the worst and most dangerous I have ever seen. The E.C.ADA ZTP IMO was a cake walk compared. I did not see fri as they call the Maistershaft [spelled that way] I arrived on sat. I was told by a woman her ScH3 female had been badly hurt by the helper and on meds, that she would be retiring her after this. "someone said this helper was suppose to be good and safe" that was me, I had seen this helper work GSD's in march and it looked a lot different than what I saw here. I will not be posting anything like that again [lesson learned!] I have spent the last 3 months watching just about every ZTP,Korung video on workingdog.eu and youtube I could find since I entered my 17 month old male in the ADA ZTP. I have never seen any "attack on the handler" like the one at this event.[ I will be posting the video of my dog] There were 5 entries, 1 female was in the conformation show the next day but skipped the ZTP [not sure why] 2 dogs were starter ZTP's. The 2 dogs that passed and took the bites were both hurt. On the long bite the first dog came in and the helper jerked the sleeve,did not absorb the shock and turn smooth. The dog came off the sleeve in the air and fell to the ground on its sholder and side then got up to engage. [the judge came out to the helper,said something, took the sleeve and rotated it back and forth, then showed the middle of the sleeve, then had him put the sleeve on and showed were to hold it] My young male was next. We walked to the old wood blind when the helper came out with in about 1 dog body lenghth to attack no room for a lunge or safe strike, he rotates and pivits around the corner coming straight out for a frontal attack, instead of straight out sideways a little so the dog has a second to see and room to engage. My male tried to jump and bite the sleeve but he came right into him, so he circled around the helper came in front again was charged then got a bite and he slipped him the sleeve. [just happy my male did not get his neck jammed] he was held back 3 months. The 3rd dog was the worst, she earned her IPO1 the day before with the same helper and field!! big congratulaions for her and her girl. This time the method of attack was the same, the dog ran away from the hepler and this guy chased her dog around the field with a stick [some reason why he needed to do this?] Ego? I hope she gets her young girl on a good helper with some bites again as soon as can. The 4th dog [Cowboy] is to be comended and congratulated! and is worthy of his name "Incredible Courage" because that is what he had. When he went for the bite up very close jammed in his face he bit and yelped very loud in pain but nothing was going to stop this male!! And guess what? he is a euro, not a pure working line dog. Maybe someday people will start looking at a dobermann as a dobermann and not just a pediree.

[Jeynie]

Thanks for sharing your point of view, Lisa. Can you clarify something for me? Obviously it was Lorna's dog Jet that was hurt by this helper and I have to assume that injury occurred during practice before the IPO trial began, given Lianne's statement about not having enough points to make a trial if Lorna had pulled her dog. So, given Jet's injury and what must have also been seen during the IPO and what you observed watching the dogs ahead of you in the ZTP, why go forward? Why would anyone want to continue on after watching dogs get hurt by this helper? This is the same guy from New York, yes? Dogs were jammed there, too. It does not seem to me that getting a ZTP, an IPO title or anything else has more value than a dog's health.

[incredibledobe]

Let me clarify for my dog. Jett had fallen off the top of the A-frame some months prior, landing flat on her side/shoulder and onto a 4 x 4 post! She had not been worked in months recovering from this injury but they needed a 4th dog and so we put her in only to help out the event and the other competitors, thinking she had had enough time to heal.
She had absolutely no practice going into the IPO trial or at the event prior and went in cold. She got 78-32-95. In protection, she came in hard and fast on the long bite, crashed, screamed, and went right back. The judge commented on it making her angrier that she got hurt. They presented her the IPO 3 trophy as she did get high protection and they loved the heart she showed working like this injured. The judge was Inge Eberstaller of austria, who judged at IDC this year.
It was not the same helper as New York, it was Mark Gomersall who is considered to be an excellent helper. IMO, he gave no inch and no advantage to any dog and worked them all with an extreme amount of pressure. It is not his fault that Jett was hurt prior and reinjured due to our decision to let her go in. As for Cowboy, well he just hits very, very hard and with that type of presentation, it is going to hurt. He appears fine after doing the IPO trial, the ZTP, and the performance portion of the championat class. Jett also did all 3 times of bitework and is home chasing rats again, happily retired.

~Lorna

[LRadcliffe]

I am here to post one more and final post, but since I see yours I will answer. I also realize that this is my experience this weekend and will only be posting the video of my dogs ZTP and what happened. I was told only that her dog was hurt and on meds and would be retiring her, she was not happy to say the least who would be, I assumed she was hurt doing her Sch3. I was the 2nd dog to go, my friend came with me for the event and she was video taping and watching the first dog, she is a GSD sportswoman and been in it for 15 some years. I did not see the first dog live, just the video, my friend told me after I went, she said she was worried but did not want to tell me as I was walking by to go do my ZTP to worry me, had she did so, It might have pevented a lot of the drama that kept happening all weekend to me and my dog. The bond I have with my dog and his health are always my priority, as I will state in my next post.

[LRadcliffe]

Lorna, you told me point blank, you were not happy about the helper and that you had heard he was suppose to be good. You seemed upset about it but maybe I read you wrong. "extreme amount of pressure" goes hand in hand with safe dog catching and helper work or whats the point? there would be no dogs left to compete.

[incredibledobe]

I was not happy with my dogs being hurt, maybe I wasn't clear. No one wants to hear their dog scream. But the helper did not cause Jett's injury - that is what I wanted to clarify. We would have to take responsibility for putting her in that position.

[Jeynie]

I didn't know you could get High in X without an overall passing score. Is that a special ADA rule?

I also don't understand why Mark Gommersal, who has experience, had to be shown proper sleeve presentation by the judge. Was it a case of the judge being crazy or Mark having a problem (per Lisa's story).

[incredibledobe]

My understanding is that it is up to the judge and the club what they award and in this case, that is what was said and done. Jett did not receive another IPO title if that is what you are asking.
Patrick asked Mark about his presentation and I forget what his exact words were, but something along the lines of it was the same for everyone. I honestly don't believe he set out to do anything but do good helper work at a "National" event. As I have said before, anything can happen at any trial and you have to take the good with the bad. Mark certainly did not present the sleeve so it would be easy for the dogs. And if he had, everyone would be talking bad about that too.

~Lorna

[Jeynie]

No, I wasn't asking if Jet received an IPO title. I wondered why a dog who didn't pass qualified to be High in anything. As far as I understand it, that's against USA and DVG rules. So, I asked if that was a special ADA/DV thing. I was unaware the judge had any purveyance at all.

[LRadcliffe]

Inge Eberstaller only judged the tracking at the FCI. My german friends tell me she is considered very contraverstial. "Cowboy just hits very,very hard and with that type of presentation, it's going to hurt" what kind of statement is that? I guess all the fast hard hitting dogs I see just don't yelp out loud and hold it inside?? come on here I mean really. Ok I am done here now. I guess your right Lorna if the handful of other people who were there are not commenting on this, I guess I was looking at a different event. This is not a case of me out to get someone, IMO just me and of course my other dogsport friend that was there, that was the most unsafe helper work I have ever seen, while thank god none of the dogs had any lasting problems as you say that does not whipe away the fact that serious injurys could have happened, but then from your post you don't seem to be to worried about that.

[talentdobe]

Lisa-

Mark is not on this forum but I am, so I'll clarify a few things for him.

Mark followed the instructions of the judge as to how to do the helper work- what angle to come at the dog, how to present the sleeve, etc. He also did not come out of the blind until the judge instructed him to do so- the judge made the decision as to when the attack happened, not Mark.

My own observation is that none of the dogs in the ZTP except the first (Danielle's Viggo) were expecting protection work right before the attack out of the blind- after all that temperament testing, the dogs thought they were going for a walk in the park- and an attack out of the blind is a hard bite to make smoothly if they don't know it's coming.

A helper is supposed to chase a dog if they do not engage the bite- it's not ego. The judge is responsible for telling the helper when to stop.

As has been clarified, Lorna and Patrick's Jett had a previous injury before the trial- yes, she did yelp on the long bite. I examined her afterwards, and although she was a bit sore, there was no permanent damage and she went on to do the bitework prior to the show on Sunday with no problem.

Lisa, anyone who has been in this sport long enough has trial days that don't go as they should- we've all been there. I think you have a nice young dog with a lot of potential, but unless you take a step back and stop blaming everyone around you, I think you will find it hard to find success.

Jessica

[LRadcliffe]

jeynie's post has brought yet one more thing to light about the ADA and its ever changing rules and do they have by-laws or do the have to follow FCI by-laws? yes they do. "they presented her the IPO3 trophy as she did get high in protection" let me get this straight??? the score was 78-32-95 or lets say those were the scores this judge gave, so the female was basically given this because she "showed a lot of heart after she was already injured to get back up and engage one more time" do I have this right? She was also made the show Siegerin, which acording to the ADA wesite rules, she would have to do a "attack on the handler" and a "courage test" sunday morning of the conformation show. Was this female put to these tests with the injuries from the day before at the judges disgression?? and did the helper put the same kind of "extreme amount of pressure that all the other dogs got" as Lorna put it. This does not sound like any thing the IDC would aprove of. But yet Mr. Zorzi say's I will be banned from FCI for not entering my dog in a conformation class? What is going on here? any body know???

[LRadcliffe]

Jessica, I am not blamming anyone for what my dogs reaction in the "attack on the handler" was it is all on video and it is what it is. People are free to watch and make up their own minds about what they see. It is interesting that you say I have a nice dog, not that the things you can be heard saying on the video indicate you wanted to see him do well, I am still deciding weather to add the sound in. I also am not sure why you feel qualified to give me any advice about what I do with my dog in this sport, or for that matter how well I will do or how I train my dog? but I guess you feel the need to make yourself important here. I do not exspect you or your small group of fans or friends to agree or like what I say or like me for that matter. I am not a member on this forum either and people can make up their own minds about what they read here. I just so happen to think there are a whole lot of things that are not right with the ADA and the trial this weekend and others as well. Maybe others think the helper work was great there and that's their right, I don't

[elucas]

Is the video on youtube?

[rasmuscm]

A couple of comments. First of all - I have noticed many times over, that when watching German ZTPs, the helpers notoriously do NOT help. I have seen horrendously presented sleeves, twisting and turning at bad times, undue amounts of pressure, etc.

What I saw of the video in NY, did not make me remember those other videos I have seen, although admittedly, Wendy's dog did get rather jammed (eek).

So, yes, the helper most likely was told by the judge how to act, how to present the sleeve, etc. (The judge was different b/w NY and WA).

Secondly - look at the video of the ZTP in NY. I do not remember one dog who looked like they were taking a walk in the park on the way to the helper in the blind. A few dogs were under obedience, a few were dragging their owners, but I don't remember one not knowing what was coming up.

I know that there are purists out there who want to see the dog react in an un-prompted way, but I think that you are really risking the outcome if your dog has no idea of what's going on -- unless you've actually trained for unsolicited attacks at any time/any place. Do you take your dog for a walk in the park and have someone jump out at them and attack? I can assure you that no personal protection dog is thrown into a situation without lots of prior training of 'there could be a bad guy behind every bush'. If you REALLY did not want to prompt your dog that someone might be coming out of that blind, then you should have trained your dog to be a little less trusting of what could happen while they were on the end of the leash. I know some of you will say - if they were bred that way, they'd be that way. Yeah, ok. You go with that. Some dogs are naturally on-guard and defensive. So, perhaps the owners of those dogs have the benefit of not having to put them 'on guard'. But guess what - you get to train them to be OK with people touching them and getting close to them etc in the temperament portion as well. Perhaps those of you with untrusting dogs, who would do well on the attack without any prompting, would also agree to not work out any people issues and see how that goes.

And, regarding Zorzoi threatening to have you thrown out of the FCI. OMG what that man will do for entry money.

-Chris