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Post by cashmando1 on Apr 4, 2012 17:20:55 GMT -5
So on another forum the discussion turned to training obedience without corrections. It got be wondering if in IPO can a dog and handler reach high levels without corrections? Not just in the obedience phase but also in the protection phase? I know the club I am with now does not use a lot of compulsion type training and they get very good results. However to use no corrections? I don't think it can be done successfully or with a lot of precision, but maybe I'm wrong. I know lot's of agility people and some AKC/CKC obedience people train without corrections and do pretty well. But I can think of many times where without a correction things probably would have gone a different direction..lol! So just wondering if first any of you train without ANY corrections or know of someone that does. And what kind of success do you or they have?
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Post by rosamburg on Apr 5, 2012 12:27:07 GMT -5
I do not believe a dog trained without corrections will withstand the pressure of real trials, especially at higher levels.
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Post by cashmando1 on Apr 5, 2012 18:35:38 GMT -5
I do not believe a dog trained without corrections will withstand the pressure of real trials, especially at higher levels. Steve, while I'm the first one to admit that training without corrections IMO would be unrealistic in IPO. I don't see the correlation of not training with corrections and having to withstand the pressure of a real trial. Can you elaborate a little further? I know this is a bit of a delicate subject, and I am by no way saying that I train with a heavy hand or a ton of corrections. For instance I am talking about a dog that knows what is excepted of him/her because you have trained the exercise, and then defies what the handler is asking. Of course that is just one example where a correction might be given. I am having a tough time explaining why I think it would be very difficult to train 100% in motivation in this sport. Hopefully some more input??
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Post by Jag on Apr 5, 2012 20:21:29 GMT -5
I am having a tough time explaining why I think it would be very difficult to train 100% in motivation in this sport. Hopefully some more input?? I think because your dog will take every chance he gets to dominate, get what he wants, and not listen. These are working dogs, most with a decent amount of aggression in them... not a good idea to let that get out of control. I think no corrections is an unbalanced way to train. they need positive and negative feedback from the handler. and i don't mean just in voice tone.
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Post by rosamburg on Apr 6, 2012 13:38:09 GMT -5
I agree with what Kara has stated. In addition big trials mean big distractions. If you were to be at a world level event you would have vendors, extreme noise distractions, lots of movement. Dogs trained without corrections do not maintain a a high level of vigilance under extreme distraction,to their handler.
Then there is protection. I cannot imagine a dog that has what it takes to reach high levels being under any kind of control in a real protection routine with extreme pressure being put on it. Now maybe a sham club level trial (and those are certainly available), with a decoy who is supposed to be bringing pressure instead using prey attraction, and a judge who is willing to go along (and again those can be found out there), may allow a someone who has trained a mediocre dog with purely positive methods some measure of success. Any higher level of pressure in a real trial the same team is just not going to make it. Not very far anyway.
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patrick
Titled Dobermann
Posts: 133
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Post by patrick on Apr 7, 2012 18:10:09 GMT -5
I think you have to look at it from dog to dog. If the dog has a high will to please and loves doing his job with you learning him the right way from the first moment why should he gets a correction? If he's bulletproof and has no enviromentproblems i see no reason why the dog shouldn't be able to compete at a higher level (just look at a lot of the malls these days). I know what you mean Steve by your post but probably some who will read it will think they need to correct their dog no matter what to get to a higher level. I would rather call it that the dog HAS to do it under any circumstances. Some dogs will need a little "motivation" to get there others a bit more LOL. I think the fact that a dominant dog always wants to disobey what you want is bull as well. Again it depends on the combination of both handler and dog. Of course there are exeptions but in today's dobermann those changes are very minor imo. Of course everybody loves to brag about how hard and how many corrections ones dog can take but that's something typical human i guess. What i DO believe is that a good dog should be capable of working under pressure at any given time but hey i once had a dog when i just cursed his tail would go down and he would almost crawl next to me without ever touching him in his life. Again it comes back to the combination of both handler and dog and in this case it didn't work out between us. So correcting him would have been a disaster. I titled him but that was about it.
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Post by cashmando1 on Apr 9, 2012 20:19:15 GMT -5
Good input, funny it's always the same people commenting. Guess you guys are the only ones that can think..lol! Just kidding. I have to agree with you all, I think no matter the dog you are going to have to correct at some point.
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Post by dobimouse on Apr 10, 2012 1:27:47 GMT -5
Hi, Patrick
a) I doubt that you ever had a working-doberman b) therefore I contend that you are a little naive and have no idea of working-Dobers c) your argument is nonsense: a dog can not and do not want to please someone, he only seeks his own advantage d) most of the dog owners are unable to "read" their dogs and to understand them. They interpret their dogs human qualities, which they do not have!!! But perhaps you know it yet: The dog is descended from the wolf.
I don't want to be unpolite, but such statements make me crazy.
Ulrike
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patrick
Titled Dobermann
Posts: 133
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Post by patrick on Apr 10, 2012 8:17:26 GMT -5
I won't even reply to that one.....
We'll talk the moment you're capable of producing a descent dog and actually DO something with it. Advertising pups on a forum shows enough i guess....
I don't wanna be unpolite either but people like you make me laugh...
gruss Patrick Horemans
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Post by Bitten on Apr 10, 2012 11:15:53 GMT -5
looking back at all the dogs I sofar have titled - each was different from the other. Not one could be trained eaqually to the other. Some had higher trainability (wanted to PLEASE more) than the other, and needed less correction to fulfil the task set forward. Some were more strongheaded, had a mind of their own, and need more corrections to fulfil the same tasks. To this, there's the optained bond between dog and handler, the stronger bond and mutural respect between the 2, again less corrections were needed. Then there were the difference between starting out from puppyhood and starting our an adult dog of 3 years or more, which had been owned by several people before I got the dog. In short - the amount of corrections needed (if any) have been depending on the individual dog, the bond and mutural respect between dog and handler. All dogs can be traced back to the wulf, even the Paplion, humans have elevated each individual breed, and in regard to which purpose these humans have been seeking through breeding these breeds of dogs, as have the working breeds been elevated towards the purpose they are and have been used, and for centuries. As we here are primary reflecting on the breed Dobermann - a dog breed which have been developed from far many more breeds of dogs than other working breeds - I suggest, that reading up on the breeds history would be a preference, before making entries which are not in accordance to reality.
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Post by Bitten on Apr 10, 2012 15:24:12 GMT -5
Hi, Patrick a) I doubt that you ever had a working-doberman b) therefore I contend that you are a little naive and have no idea of working-Dobers c) your argument is nonsense: a dog can not and do not want to please someone, he only seeks his own advantaged) most of the dog owners are unable to "read" their dogs and to understand them. They interpret their dogs human qualities, which they do not have!!! But perhaps you know it yet: The dog is descended from the wolf. I don't want to be unpolite, but such statements make me crazy. Ulrike Your entry is beyond unpolite, it's insulting - I suggest that you refrase the context of your entry. Thank's
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Post by dobimouse on Apr 10, 2012 23:22:43 GMT -5
Bitten, I see no reason why I should rephrase. The truth hurts sometimes. But don't get upset, that was my last post.
bye Ulrike
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Post by octavian2 on Apr 11, 2012 1:21:10 GMT -5
While I understand you do not want to reply- Your comment "capable of producing a descent dog and actually DO something with it" are way off the mark! I need not list the many Sch-3 IPO-3 FH and DV Championship participation "DO something" accomplishments Ulrike has done with her dogs and continues to anyone can see for themselves at her workingdog.eu page, as well as the first class working line pedigree's in her breeding program Lisa
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Post by Bitten on Apr 11, 2012 4:31:34 GMT -5
Bitten, I see no reason why I should rephrase. The truth hurts sometimes. But don't get upset, that was my last post. bye Ulrike Yes, the truth hurts - but the truth can always be told in an ethical correct manner - no need to be insulting. Speaking of the truth - I feel it could be interesting to look into that aspect.
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patrick
Titled Dobermann
Posts: 133
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Post by patrick on Apr 11, 2012 5:41:24 GMT -5
While I understand you do not want to reply- Your comment "capable of producing a descent dog and actually DO something with it" are way off the mark! I need not list the many Sch-3 IPO-3 FH and DV Championship participation "DO something" accomplishments Ulrike has done with her dogs and continues to anyone can see for themselves at her workingdog.eu page, as well as the first class working line pedigree's in her breeding program Lisa DV participation? www.dobermann.com/pruefungen_97_02.htmGo to DV-DM (Deutsche leistungssieger) and show me through the years a dog who participated from the mentioned kennel. Either i need glasses or otherwise you're info is wrong... Now i don't want to turn this into some kind of bashing thing or bring someone down but as was mentioned before about the truth...if you speak about it preach it as well... Greetings from the guy who never owned a workingdobermann
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