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Post by panzer on Jan 16, 2012 23:21:25 GMT -5
I am new to this forum but have been training with my 17 month male dobie with my local schutzhund club for almost 1 year. The club is 99% GSDs with the exception of my boy. I was just wondering if Dobermanns should be trained differently vs. GSDs. Panzer is doing great at barking during the prey drive work, he likes the leather tug or really anything made of leather but will not take a full bite on a sleeve..seems to bite and spit and he seems to get bored very quickly. I know he has the potential for schutzhund work and he is from a working line but I am concerned that the people we are working with are not as familiar with working dobes vs. GSDs. Any info. would be helpful. Thanks
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Post by cashmando1 on Jan 17, 2012 0:49:53 GMT -5
Personally for the most part I don't think the training should be different. But obviously Dobermans are not Shepherds, they were bred for different reasons. So I think when they don't fit the training mold and little problems start to surface, solutions are not necessarily the same as with the Shepherds. Having someone who knows the breed well might better be able to fix the problem. That's of course if it is fixable. One thing I have observed is Dobermans tend to mature a little slower. So I do think that each dog should be evaluated and then worked to his maturity level, what he/she is bringing to the helper and not based on age alone.
So he bites the sleeve full but then spits? Or does he never take a full bite and then disengages? My boy from the time he went on the sleeve would bite full but then drop it to reengage with the helper. He was well over two before he quietly held the sleeve, even now he only holds for so long.
Do you have any video of this? What do you mean he gets bored? bored during protection? Or bored in general, or do you mean avoidance? Again video might be helpful. Are you doing a lot of repetition in obedience with him? I find my two do not liked to be drilled plus they usually get it after a few times. Once they understand it I try and throw it into training a few times but not over and over again.
You say he has the potential for Schutzhund, how do you know this? Being from working lines helps put not every dog in the litter will necessarily will be good in the sport. What does your training director say about whats going on? What are they doing to try and fix it? Where are you training?
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 17, 2012 3:53:52 GMT -5
I think you will get a range of answers to this question. Some will say they need to be trained differently. Others will say not. I am of the persuasion that how a dog is trained has more to do with their individual drives, temperament and nerve structure than it does in regards to the breed.
The same is true in regards to top level handlers and trainers. John Soares (who has certainly been successful at world level competition with a Dobermann) wrote an interesting article stating his opinion that the Dobermann breed is very different than a herding breed and needs to be handled very differently. On the other hand Butch Henderson (who has had the most success in competition in North America with a Dobermann in probably the last 10 years stated in an interview (you could probably read it in the archives) that he thinks it comes down to the individual dog rather than the breed.
In regards to the advise you are getting at your club it just all depends..I train at a German Shepherd Club. There are about 15 GSD's, 1 Malinious, a couple of Rottweilers and we are the only Dobermann at the club. I don't think it matters as much about whether the training director and/or helpers know so much about the Dobermann as it matters whether they have a broad range of experience handling many different temperaments of dogs.
The reality is there is a wide range of quality and knowledge level from club to club. The very first club I was exposed to I thought the training director/top helper was amazing. As I went from there from one club to another club, to finally where I ended up 7 years ago I have changed my opinion. If we were to look at clubs in terms of quality and equated them to sports teams, we would see Junior High, High School, College and pros. Maybe that does not quite equate because there are trainers who will take your money (so called "professionals") who are more at the high school level and there are some amateurs that are world class, but you get the idea. I can see now that that first trainer was somewhere around a high school level trainer (at best) in spite of the fact he had been in the sport a few decades. In other words you may have to take what is said to you in regards to your dog, with a grain of salt or you may have to take it as gospel. Time will tell.
BTW please take the time to introduce yourself in the new member section. A little info about yourself, your dog, where you train would be great.
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Post by traceyh on Jan 18, 2012 20:07:35 GMT -5
Hi Panzer-
I have an American Bulldogs training in IPO, so I can feel a bit of your pain being in a club where GSD dominate. The good news is..as the others have said..it comes down to the individual temperament of the dog, more then the breed. If a Bulldog can do it..a Doberman can:)
Your dog may just not be ready to be on a sleeve quite yet, that is what it sounds like to me. Too many trainers are in a rush to get the dogs biting on the sleeve, when many times the dog is just not mentally ready, or doesn’t yet know the rules (how to bark for the bite, pull, out, hold and carry calmly) to be on the sleeve. Once we have our dogs doing all those things with the handler using the tug, then we would introduce a helper, but never as a game! To keep the power in the dog you need to introduce the helper in defense, as the dog’s foe, rather then a friend… But the way you train will ultimately be decided by your club, training director and helper(s).
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Post by dobermanman on Jan 18, 2012 20:56:29 GMT -5
HI Tracey
You should wait till the dog is at least a year old IF you're going to introduce the Helper in Defense. Fortunately there are other methods of training that allow the handler to be more proactive in their dogs bite development. There's no arguing with Lance Collins success but it seems to work better with GSD's then Dobermanns or Malinois. In addition I don't know any Mondio Ring dogs that are worked in defense?
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 18, 2012 22:55:44 GMT -5
HI Tracey You should wait till the dog is at least a year old IF you're going to introduce the Helper in Defense. Fortunately there are other methods of training that allow the handler to be more proactive in their dogs bite development. There's no arguing with Lance Collins success but it seems to work better with GSD's then Dobermanns or Malinois. In addition I don't know any Mondio Ring dogs that are worked in defense? I agree with the statement that a dog should be not worked in defense until they are a year. Once in a blue moon we will try it at 11 months if we think the dog is ready and the handler is clamoring for it. I can say it is usually better to wait, even for those dogs. As far as working better with a GSD than a Dobie, I don't really agree but then again with my last 3 dogs that we have done it with, we waited until 13-14 months so it may be more about letting them mature more. Then again Thomas, how the defense by Lance is introduced may be different than what you are visualizing. Evita vom Draggoneriech (John Kowalczyk's bitch) was trained in this manner and he got pretty good results from her. I think there was only one occasion where she did not V in protection and some of those trials were under some very difficult judges. In addition I would say we probably focus more on bite development with puppies than many clubs would, but it is all done with a back tie and tug. I know even less about Mondio than FR. When I visited the Langley Ringsport Club (FR/Vince Nulles) he stated he was going to do defense work with a 6 month old puppy. However the work he did is not what I would have considered defense work, so the semantics may have just been different.
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Post by octavian2 on Jan 19, 2012 0:34:51 GMT -5
Hi Panzer, For anyone new to bite sports imo one of the best reads on protection work is Armin Winkler's articles on Shutzhund Village website. "Prey drive promotion" and "defense drive work" I do not think its necessary to wait to get a dog on a sleeve with a helper til they are a year old as long as the training is fun for the dog. The defense training can start when a dog is already on biting equipment has some countering and has learned a B&H. The video has nothing new as far as training but it's always nice to see Vit Gilisnik catch dogs very smooth.. imo it is very important to read, watch and learn from many different venues regardless of what breeds are being worked but I do know for myself that if someone does not appreciate the dobermann or know what differences it brings to bite work find yourself a different helper that does because they are no GSD at 17months a good helper should have your dog biting good on a sleeve and not "get bored very quickly" as you say. You say he is from a working line ? which one? and you are concerned that the people you are working with are not familiar with working dobes vs GSD? What leads you to think this?
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Post by traceyh on Jan 19, 2012 5:36:14 GMT -5
Thomas,
You are 100% correct. The dog should be at minimum a year old before any “defense” work is started. Here the earliest our dogs have seen a sleeve was 13 months.
We are new to the LC way of things here and I can’t sing his praises enough as his system is all about working with the dogs natural behaviours and while most other clubs are focused on the biting part of the sports, this method is more about the control and obedience end of things. I had a SchH 3 male who was an out of control, screaming mess on the field. With Lance’s help he is now heeling with focus and keeping straight with a helper cracking the whip out there. Might not seem like a huge deal..but if you knew the dog from before..you wouldn’t believe it.
I train with 2 clubs, one is 100% L.Collins while the other trains in the traditional way. It is like night and day! To be able to see how the other club’s dogs work when compared to my own keeps me right on track with what I am doing. I never want to go back to what the others are doing, so much more work in trying to fix issues later, rather then just doing it right from the start. They rush to get pups on the sleeve by 6 months and by 3 years they are trying to add aggression and power back into the work!
Lance has been working on his system for 20?? years, and IMO he has found the most effective way to get dogs ready to compete at high levels in the sport. He isn’t focused on getting the IPO 1 and then try to fix things for the 2. It is from day one always geared towards getting the dog to the highest levels, and that is the reason his club is the most successful club in Canada. Every dog there, even Steve’s Doberman are working at a high level!!
It worked very good with ALL breeds..my group here along with GSDs(show lines and working), has Malinois, Bulldogs and a Cane Corso..as I said before it is not about breed. It is about the DOG! A good Doberman can work in this system.
I hugely disagree with ever having a dog on the sleeve as “fun”. This is supposed to be about protection work, not fun! I don’t ever want my dogs in the mind set that sleeve=a game. That is a hard thing to re teach later on..
I think of the tug vs sleeve is similar to dowel vs dumbbell. It is better to do all your teachings on the first object rather then waiting until later and teaching the dog on what they will see in trial.
As for Ring sport, you can certainly train it in the same way as we do. It just seems to be that the Ring crowd prefer keeping the dogs in prey..no different then most IPO people really..My helper started in French and Belgian Ring sport .
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Post by dobermanman on Jan 19, 2012 9:39:54 GMT -5
I think the trouble with the Collins system is very few people have access to him. There is very limited material available either written or video. Working any dog in defense is dangerous unless you know what you're doing. Of course if anyone has a pointer to material that explains the Collins method in detail I'd love to see it.
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Post by traceyh on Jan 19, 2012 12:40:28 GMT -5
Yes, having access to Lance is a big problem, and even those who have attended his seminars or workweek only come back home and forget all that they have seen/heard or don’t have access to others who are on board with the training, it is very much a TEAM system. I have been to 1 seminar of his locally, been to his club for a weekend of training, had him here for a weekend of training and am going to Work week next month and I still have a lot to learn/catch up on with him. Four of my club members went out last year so I have hours of video I can watch as well. I put a lot of effort in to improve my skill level. Many people just dismiss the training entirely even after he shows them how to improve their training..they don’t want to change, don’t believe in the work involved, don’t want to spend a year?? working on fundamentals. There is also a lot of misconceptions about Lance..like he is heavy handed (which couldn’t be farther from the truth, he was on me all the time about me being too harsh!!), or very tough to deal with or into it only for $$$.. All are completely false. He only wants to see the quality of training improve and is willing to give his time up freely to help people achieve better results. Actually Steve is the exact same way, the entire club is only out to help others, the problem is it is very hard to explain the entire system online..especially because it is so different from what most trainers are currently doing. His club is extremely welcoming and put on Work Week every year to help people learn about the program and see it work on their club dogs. Where else can you go for 5 days of 8-9 hours of daily training for less then $200 and that is with a dog if you want to bring one? Like any other training it is a lot of hard work and certainly not fool proof..you are still going to have bad days in trial, we are dealing with a dog after all. But with my own personal dogs the performance I got was much better then what I had previously. So I am sticking with this style and hopefully this year I will have a bit more success and perhaps help more new people join in the training I enjoy so much. We have a team of 10 of us training together now, most of them are brand new handlers. One is a US National competitor and you can’t tell who is who as all the dogs work at the same levels..That is what I like most, ANYBODY can get good results in Obedience with this method! The benefit someone like myself who has been to Nationals has over a person with their first dog, is only the experience. Everything is broken down into such small pieces, that every handler gets success and feels positive after every session. The big thing I have found is his entire training is a SYSTEM that will take you from young dog to higher levels but you have to follow the steps, you can skip around or try to mix and match training. I am lucky to have a TD that knows Lance’s training well enough to teach the rest of us and keep us heading in the right direction. You also need a helper you can trust. Even though the dog is started in “defense” the protection work itself isn’t what I would call defense based training. It is just more about keeping the dog in control without sacrificing any power and you don’t see the conflict issues between handler/dog that you do see with some other training methods. (Dog not able to hold calmly on an out with the handler or fighting with the dog on the outs as examples) One of our trainers came from Mike Ellis’ school and is now working in this system, some of it is similar, like the tug play, but we want a more active response in our dogs. Out = Barking for our dogs as one example. If I ever get a Doberman, I will document the entire journey I have video but unfortunately it is all Mals, GSD or Bulldogs..
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 19, 2012 13:18:54 GMT -5
There is also a lot of misconceptions about Lance..like he is heavy handed (which couldn’t be farther from the truth, he was on me all the time about me being too harsh!!), or very tough to deal with or into it only for $$$.. All are completely false. He only wants to see the quality of training improve and is willing to give his time up freely to help people achieve better results. Actually Steve is the exact same way, the entire club is only out to help others, the problem is it is very hard to explain the entire system online..especially because it is so different from what most trainers are currently doing. His club is extremely welcoming and put on Work Week every year to help people learn about the program and see it work on their club dogs. Where else can you go for 5 days of 8-9 hours of daily training for less then $200 and that is with a dog if you want to bring one? .. I don't see how anyone can say he is only in it for the money, as he does not charge for his seminars. Even at work week, he does not get a dime for the countless hours he puts in. The registration fee is to cover meals and the gift bag. As far as limited access to Lance, yes there is some truth to that. Workweek is by invite only. It is now limited to people who are truly interested in the system. Personally, I no longer invite people.
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Post by dobermanman on Jan 19, 2012 17:46:13 GMT -5
[quote I don't see how anyone can say he is only in it for the money, as he does not charge for his seminars. Even at work week, he does not get a dime for the countless hours he puts in. The registration fee is to cover meals and the gift bag.
As far as limited access to Lance, yes there is some truth to that. Workweek is by invite only. It is now limited to people who are truly interested in the system. Personally, I no longer invite people. [/quote]
Steve,
OK Lance is a great trainer and a great guy. BUT anyone interested in his methods are SOL as far as articles or video by Lance. Anyone that doesn't train at Lance's club is SOL beyond what they can pick up at a seminar. Unless of course you have a week of vacation and can afford to get to Canada AND get an invitation to Work Week?
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Post by octavian2 on Jan 19, 2012 22:24:05 GMT -5
"I hugely disagree with ever having a dog on the sleeve as fun" When I said "it should be fun" for a young dog I did not mean Sleeve= a game! Prey work for young dogs imo should be fun, chasing a rag, biting a tug, puppy sleeve then on to a sleeve learning to target,strike and grip all on a helper has nothing to do with how "serious" the finished dog will be about protection work if the genetics are there. Starting a 12 month old dog on a helper the first time with a little defense is no guarantee you will have a more serious protection dog than one started younger on a helper or less problems if they pop up It's just a different training method. I had an opportunity last weekend to train with a police swat team Mali and DS both very serious and both looked like they were having a whole lotta dog fun! both had also had live bites and one had a high pitched bark and jumped up and down go figure.....
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Post by octavian2 on Jan 19, 2012 23:22:13 GMT -5
"Many people dismiss the training entirely even after he shows them how to improve their training, they don't want to change don't believe in the work involved" I took a lot of notes at the work week, I learned a lot of interesting training ideas and I would venture to say many people do as well. If someone does want to train in that system they would need to train with someone who also understands it as most exercises need 2 people. I use some of them but have tailored them in my own way."There is also a lot of misconceptions about Lance...like he is very heavy handed" imo the training is very heavy handed for how I want to train my dog so this is no surprise, to each their own. But I agree the WW is a good training experience to see and Lance and his club are very generous with their time. For the ones who find success with this system more power to them- good clubs and TD are hard to come by.
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 20, 2012 14:05:03 GMT -5
Yet another tidbit of information from a GSD guy:
The reminder here is that the origin of Schutzhund and the rules under which we "compete" were developed to "test" the dog’s temperament (courage and hardness NOT "play prey" or "ball" drive) for breed suitability - not for a sport. We cannot lose sight of the fact that Schutzhund is a BREED SUITABILITY test or we do a disservice to the German Shepherd dog. Conscientious breeders should train and test their bloodlines...not simple be in the "puppy business”.
-Gunther Diegel, Director of Schutzhund Judges for the Verein für Deutsche Schaferhund (SV) in Germany.
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