What about this Kennel?

[fonfy Florin Niculescu]

I see you have many teachers, specialists. . good luck

[Vadim]

Dec 31, 2009 14:11:05 GMT -5 Andy said:

Im knew, I need it spelled out for me. I will be doing this sport with Dobermans and I want a doberman that is going to excell in the sport. I got on here to hopefully get some help with that and to learn what to look for.

Hi Andy,

Hope you are enjoying the site. I know it can get frustrating with so many different opinions. I also encourage you to read through the forum archive. There are many threads on bloodlines and breeders. There are also many breeders in the classified section of the site. usadobermann.net/classifieds.html


In regards to the breeder you asked about, I do not know them. Therefore I can not reccommend them. That is probably why others on the site do not endorse them. However they may be new. If they are breeding titled, health tested dogs and have experience with high level working dogs they may be succesful in the future. I wish them luck.

Pictures and video are great, but competition scores from a recognized organization are better. If they are out there competing with their dogs it is more likely someone on the forum will have met them. Ask the breeder what club they train with? Which trials have they competed in? These are things that can be varified and you may be able to find someone who can give you a unbiased opinion of the dogs being bred.


Keep in mind that if you trually want a dog to compete at the highest levels then your chances will be best if you get that dog from a breeder that has produced dobermanns that have been succesful in the past.

Also because you have a number of dogs already, reputable breeders will have to get to know you in order to feel comfortable placing a dog with you. If the dogs dont get along there could be fight. Even if they are segragated, dogs gets loose or can escape enclosure when you least expect it. So the more dogs the more likely an accidental breeding or a fight will occur, or maybe one day you will not be able to afford to take care of them all, Life happens. If someone gets to know you, you might be able to aleviate these concerns. Perhaps you could get a reccomendation from your Vet and/or Training Director at your current club? These sort of things show you are serious and prepared.

Another thought is to consider import from europe. There are european breeders listed in the classifieds section too. The breeders listed are the ones that are best known. Not all of them import to the US but some do and this will increase your choices of quality dogs. usadobermann.net/classifieds.html

I think some of your questions can be best answered in Chat. I know its not the best right now but in a few days it will be upgraded and should have people using it more often.

Good luck

[Andy]

Hi Vadim,

I think you answered my question better (without scolding me) Unlike a few others, unintentionally, im sure...heheh Which I know is pretty common. I dont take offense to anything. Its a chat forum....lol People have opinions and thats what they stick to.

As far as scores go----I honestly do NOT think that is a good way to 100% determine how good the dog is. Mainly because, the scores do have a lot to do with how the dog is trained as well. If that makes any sense.

I completely understand that reputable breeders will have to get to know me....However some of the "reputable" breeders wouldnt even take the time to write more than a sentence back to me. Which states "i wont place a male puppy in a home with another intact male" Ok i guess they dont want to take the time to get to know anyone....Thats ok, thats their choice.

Im not going to give up on my search. I will just have to keep looking and making connections.

[Vadim]

Andy,

I did not say High scores did I? But passing would be nice. People who go out and trial their dogs are giving an opportunity to independent observers to make their own judgments on the quality of the dog and the training.

Also don't underestimate the increase in difficulty from most club trials to larger Regional or National events. These larger events provide even a better test of the dog and give even more independent people an opportunity to see the dog.

Keep researching and looking and hopefully you will find what you are looking for.

see ya online

[sonterra]

Dec 31, 2009 17:24:55 GMT -5 Andy said:

As far as scores go----I honestly do NOT think that is a good way to 100% determine how good the dog is. Mainly because, the scores do have a lot to do with how the dog is trained as well. If that makes any sense.

No one mentioned anything about scores being the ultimate. What they said was the parents be TITLED and that you can access the scores from the trials. Somtimes scores alone can be decieving so you have to know what to look for (what judges are hard, good, easy, soft, etc).

And yes good scores can be good training. You WANT a person like that as your breeder because they then want YOUR dog to excel and will help mentor you.

Seeing pics or video of a dog working is all well and good. However if that dog or the BREEDING program is never tested it is all just opinion. It is much easier to say, oh my dog could do that no problem - than to actually get out there and trial the dog.

My issue with the kennel you pointed out is that there are no titles, other than some conformation, anywhere on those dogs. YOU are looking for a dog to work and EXCEL in schutzhund. So look for a puppy out of dogs that could and did actually title. Parents that have PROVEN they CAN title, and not just arm-chair-quarter-back-talk about titling.

You have to look at the WHOLE picture of the puppys' parents. Are the parents titled? What were the scores and WHERE did they earn the scores? What is the genetic character? How many dogs are titled in the pedigree? What is the video of their trial like? Are there progeny of these dogs trialing/titling/working?

As to the contact with reputable kennels:

Honestly, IMHO, if you are telling the kennels you contact that you have Kimbertal dobes AND that they are intact, you will continue to get little response. This would be a super big red flag, meaning to them, that you want to start your own little puppy mill with the new breeding stock. There are very few, working OR show, breeders that will have ANY association with Kimbertal or Hoyt.

The other thing that works against you is that you have 3 dogs training in sch and no dog titled in sch. You are a newbie home that already has 3 dogs to focus on. Breeders want to see a committment to training, in the form of titles. Things might go more your way if you waited until some or even one of your 3 is titled.

Getting a dobe from a kennel with a great rep for working dogs is not something you can just throw money at. These people put a huge amount of time into training and competing and PROVING their dogs. These kennels are sought out by the serious competitor/trainer and there is usually a waiting list. A quality puppy is worth waiting for.

Tamara McIntosh

[Andy]

As for telling people that I have Kimbertal dobes. Im not going to lie to them. Right now Im working with what I have. I work my guys constantly, although because of the holidays, they havent been worked like I want them worked. Not a single kennel has even asked me for a reference (i.e. Club President, vet) I dont expect to throw money at someone and get a puppy. I do understand the fact that I will have to make contacts and build a rep-our with Kennels, HOWEVER, I cant get them to respond in a positive manner and some still havent responded....Maybe the non-response is because of the Holidays.

All 3 of my guys will be ready for a BH this spring (1 is ready now, the other 2 I am still working some kinks out) and I am hoping that my black bitch will be ready for her SchH 1 this summer early fall.

I may regret doing this because of some of the comments I might get....hehehe----But here goes

I created a website with some of the pictures I had of all the guys doing protection and some obedience work. Take a look and let me know what you think.

www.andysdogs.weebly.com :-)

[handrolled]

Hello Andy,

What you're aiming for is something we've all gone through starting as a novice , we want to short cut all the learning and get a first class working pup to fulfill our ambitions. Living in the UK you might imagine I would find it easy to import a pup from Europe but 'our' rabies laws make it impossible to get a dog before it's 10months old. so we have to resign ourselves to the fact it will not be a pup anymore. This is where a good relationship with a breeder is paramount and this takes time.
As Tamara/Vadim has mentioned not every breeder is willing to put a pup into novice hands they have to much to lose if the training is wrong and I'm speaking from experience , I got my import via a recommendation from a experienced handler here in the UK + I'd visited Germany and made a few friends. I realize this would be difficult for you living in USA but you could visit training in the States
and build up a network of friends there who could in time point you in the right direction.

Don't be fooled by what it says on a pedigree my first 'working' dog had a fantastic ped' but it was mix of show titles and Sch'h titles and after closer inspection were worthless for 'sport'.
Keep on working your dogs and trying to get them titled the experience will pay dividends in the long run.

Brian.

[rosamburg]

Andy, thanks for posting what you want to do. In my experience if you want the dog to go as far as it can then it is best to fully concentrate on one dog at a time. If you look at people who do this for fun (as opposed to professionals who can devote a lot of hours every day to working dogs) and who are successful, you will find they usually are only working one dog.

It really compounds problems if you try to raise and train more than one young dog at a time. There is also the problem of them focusing more on each other than where the focus needs to be...on you. It will also be difficult to find a good working line breeder who will let a dog go to such a situation, because they want their dogs to be successful. I was faced with this dilemma last year. I had two puppies from my litter who I REALLY liked. The female I liked and kept back from the litter was really amazing. In the end I kept the male because he was also very good and I wanted to work a male. However I always remember that extra spark she had above all the rest of the puppies in the litter. Incidentally she by far had the worst conformation in the litter.

We all have a different perspective of what success is. For some it would be just being able to do the work. For others being able to get a sch1 title. For others it would be being able to get to Sch3. For others it would be being able to compete at a high level against the best Dobermanns out there. Still for others it would be able to compete at a high level (a shot at the podium) at a major event such as a Regional or National, or even World all breed championship.

When you think of all the work that goes into being successful at any level in a 3 phase (tracking, obedience, protection )sport such as Schutzhund, you are looking at an enormous amount of time. I would say that having to work 2 young dogs makes it at least 3 times as difficult to find success with just one of them. It also puts a lot of strain on the people who will be helping you. It would be difficult enough for YOU to remember all of the nuances and quirks of just a single dog. Add one more to the mix and and it again compounds the problem. To then expect a training director to remember would be expecting a lot. Especially if you have Dobermanns (they may be reluctant to have just one at their club to begin with) as they all look alike to GSD people.

[Florin NICULESCU]

after 35 years in the circle of breeders, trainers, many things make me laugh. Working Dobermann, Dobermann show brother were there osingura line Dobermann who will be able to pass ZTP I saw was the many Dobermann in the past and have much more now when a Dobermann is ugly is still working and vice versa so as dear friends There is one Dobermann EUROPEAN LINES, other things are only sand in the eye.
I wish you luck
www.bodyguardk9.com

[kansadobe]

I know that this guy speaks and writes english, but you wouldn't know it from his posts. Florin, translation please. Your post made no sense to me.

[Florin NICULESCU]

I see that you do I litter USdoberman + EU dobermann =

Neither do I adestend you how you can do these litter donkey( US doberman ) + horse (EU dobermann ) = Mule
learn to read between the lines
you want a good night, and read the Dobermann EU and U.S. standards


www.bodyguardk9.com

[Florin NICULESCU]

Kansas Doberman.

for me these are 2 completely different breed from my experience of 35 years EUROPE CANADA, I saw American and almost all IDC ch. . If you want a new breed will need to make a new standard and we want more achievements eu.us.dobelain
I wish Good Luck
www.bodyguardk9.com

[zedemar]

Florin do things he likes to do.
He was not even able to register until now.
He tells tales of experience but have non.
He buys and sells, that is all about it.

[anne Conroy]

Andy -- where do they show pedigrees?? This doesn't look remotely like a working breeder . . . anyone else have thoughts?

BTW: I had the bi-colour GSD at the Cinnci trial with Thomas Lap. Not sure you remember me? We trialed at the 3 level? We talked a little -- you had that great new vehicle. I told you I had working dobes, but not one with me on that trip!!

ac

[fireball3]

you asked what was wrong with only 4 litters this year? Alot is wrong with that statement if you have had 4 litters of dogs that you are breeding for "work" and yet have never put a title on a dog. How can you (general you) know what a good dog for work is if you have never put in the enormous amount of effort it takes to earn a title. I can think of 2 other breeders who tout the same and whether they have good dogs or not I would never trust them to sell me a puppy because they do not have the very basic first step of being a working breeder down - test your breeding stock and your training in a standardized manner that the rest of us can relate to. Some people would be fine with getting a puppy from someone who gets titled dogs and breeds them, but they are missing a huge piece of the equation by skipping the work.

Oh and I have to agree with what someone else said about having Kimbertal dogs, it's not going to help only hinder your search. If you spayed and neutered them it would help you out alot.