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Post by Vadim on Aug 30, 2010 15:01:37 GMT -5
I would like to start a discussion about Handler Agression.
Some well known dogs are known to have issues with it.
What is it? Is it misdirected drive or a nerve issue?
Is it caused by relationship/training issues or is it genetic?
If its Genetic which lines have been known to carry it?
What do you do when faced with this issue in a young dog? How about an adult?
Personally I am very sensative to this issue when seeing it in a young dog and work hard to adress it as early as possible through clear communication and consequences. However I have had less success dealing with it in older dogs. Some trainers are excellent in resolving this issue with older dogs.
What has been your experience?
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Post by ButterflyMommy on Aug 30, 2010 15:05:14 GMT -5
I am really curious as to what everyone thinks on this. I am a complete newbie here and to the breed in general and have heard this thrown around a few times and admit its a slight concern for me. I would love to get more info from all of you experienced and this thread is looking like a great starting point.
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Post by DeDe on Aug 30, 2010 15:09:49 GMT -5
Personally, I've seen several different types and reasons for handler aggression. Some were from being overly dominant and not accepting human direction, others were fear based. Still others seemed to stem from 'unfair' handling.
I must admit though, I have never really seen this in a younger dog. Maybe I just didn't recognize it as such, I don't know.
The only real personal experience I've ever had with Handler Aggression was due to the unfair handling of the dog by another. I found that when I treated them fairly, I had no problems from the dog.
I look forward to more input on this from everyone.....
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Post by sonterra on Aug 30, 2010 16:15:03 GMT -5
I would like to start a discussion about Handler Agression. Some well known dogs are known to have issues with it. What is it? Is it misdirected drive or a nerve issue? Is it caused by relationship/training issues or is it genetic? What do you do when faced with this issue in a young dog? How about an adult? What has been your experience? Interesting topic Vadim! I have seen handler aggression as early as 7 week old malinois puppies, and full blown cases in dogs much older. It is much more managable in a young puppy as they can be manuvered much easier and a 20lb body much easier to control than a 70+lb adult. Most adults usually have a lifetime of courage to back up their words and don't give up near as easily. I think it is something that needs to be addressed as serious from the time it is recognized to the end of the dogs life. Like with anything consistancy means the most. A fear based biter needs to understand that it is unacceptable, but they also need to understand they are safe. If you can establish safety with the dog, the handler aggression should go away. Putting this type of dog in survival mode type of correction would not do it any good and would reinforce the negative view the dog already has. If the dog has a fairness issue, then the "rules" of what is fair and what is not need to be set very early on for both the handler AND the dog. For the ubber dominant dog.. well.. they need handlers with a good deal of internal fortitude! I know several people whom PREFER this type of dog, they love the attitude (and I know several whom have had knock down drag out death matches with these dogs as well and to them it is just a part of being a dog handler). I think the first two can be dealt with, and dealt with by a skilled handler, and maybe even a talented newbie handler. The last one... it needs a very special handler to appreciate and control it. I don't think it has to be a negative against the dog, but not neccessarily a positive either. Just a one part of the dogs personality that you need to know. Tamara McIntosh |
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Post by Vadim on Sept 1, 2010 10:09:35 GMT -5
What about dogs that are not naturally very dominant but get aggresive in the home over time in an inexperienced home?
How do you rehab that dog?
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Dale
Puppy
Show me Your dog and Ill tell you what manner of man you are.
Posts: 20
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Post by Dale on Sept 3, 2010 23:58:54 GMT -5
well if you get a dog that has become aggresive in the home, that is usually due to an incorrect pack heiarchy. The dog believes himself to be above the family of humans, and anything done by those under him, will be met with aggression.
This is very common in households who dont understand the dynamics of owning a protection breed dog, especially one that is high energy, and may have a dominant personality.
These types of people find themselves babying and spoiling this wonderful puppy, and letting it claim its spot on the furniture or bed, and laughing and giggling at the cute way he "argues" when he wants his way. Then suddenly when this cute puppy gets to be a 60+ lb muscular strong dominating dog, they find themselves in a bad situation, that can get them hurt.
The best way I have found to correct this has been to have the family work with a seasoned trainer who understands protection breed dogs, and dominant dogs, from there you have to change the peoples outlook, and teach them how to handle the dog, in all situations, what to expect and how to react. What to let the dog do or dont do. and at the same time, you have to work with the dog with the family to teach him his place in the structure.
Now the way that would happen would of course depend on the severity of the issues the dog shows, but I believe you can understand the gist of what I am saying.
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Dale
Puppy
Show me Your dog and Ill tell you what manner of man you are.
Posts: 20
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Post by Dale on Sept 4, 2010 0:05:17 GMT -5
I would also say that a dominant dog collar can be your best friend when dealing with a truly handler aggresive dog.
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Post by Vadim on Sept 4, 2010 0:26:55 GMT -5
do you have a link to what a dominant dog collar looks like?
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Post by Guest on Sept 4, 2010 13:43:56 GMT -5
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Dale
Puppy
Show me Your dog and Ill tell you what manner of man you are.
Posts: 20
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Post by Dale on Sept 6, 2010 21:10:39 GMT -5
thats a good pic of one, the ones I have and have made, are the nylon cord, with a round metal ring on each end, kinda like a choke collar or fursaver, they work very very well.
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Post by flashthe3rd on Jan 8, 2011 16:30:00 GMT -5
i was thinking could they take out the snap end and put the metal O ring were the snap is in? like have it like a choke chain or slip lead?snap in looks like the dog would feel unconfortable waring it
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Post by Jag on Jan 8, 2011 20:29:37 GMT -5
nice topic V... let's have some more people with experience answer!
if it's just redirected frustration, and not a dog turning and mauling me... I really don't think it should be corrected and don't think it's a huge problem.
my dog has bitten me when I went to move her over during protection work. it was my fault... she was in drive, and I put my hand right by her mouth when she was wanting to bite... and bite she will- anything!
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Post by jonny on Jan 10, 2011 7:01:05 GMT -5
my dog has bitten me when I went to move her over during protection work. it was my fault... she was in drive, and I put my hand right by her mouth when she was wanting to bite... and bite she will- anything! I think this is interesting. Do you feel it is ok for a dog to bite its handler when in drive? I was talking a breeder and an army dog handler about this. He was stating for the military(ie his dogs are doing high altitude parachute jumps into afghanistan)that you need to have a dog with extremely strong nerves to contain the drives so it is clear headed when biting and does not become uncontrollable and crazy. Some of these dog sports build these prey drives through the roof and breeders fail to breed for the super strong nerves to contain this. Therefore on the competition field their extreme drives hide any nerve weaknesses that they have through poor breeding. Anyways just a thought cheers J |
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Post by Jag on Jan 10, 2011 11:30:45 GMT -5
John,
Just because a dog redirects its drive and bites the handler doesn't make it weak nerved at all.
A lot of the best dogs out there have challenged their handler. whether it be growling/nipping/or a bite... in a non-working environment.
if my dog did this in a non-working environment... i wouldn't let it happen again.
if we were working for biting and my dog redirected when i touched her face... I wouldn't correct it. that's just me. There is a difference in a handler aggressive dog- to the point where the dog would turn to me and take me instead of the decoy, than a dog that redirects it's frustration because of bite drive.
I think that guy was talking about his dogs nerves for specifically what he does- parachute jumping.
if his dogs get stressed and bite while they are parachuting... that would be really bad for the handler. Dealing with an out of control, biting dog in mid-air would be a problem. This is a completely different scenario. The dog is scared and is reacting out of fear and weak nerves... and bites because he wants to get away from the handler to save his life... not because he's in working drive.
JMO.
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Post by vrulli on Jan 10, 2011 11:43:06 GMT -5
Kara,
Be careful what you "allow" or "tolerate" when handling/training your dog. Speaking from experience and lots of bruises.
Nerves or drive aside, it's absolutely NOT OK!
I said the same thing too... "because he's in drive" and was nearly smacked in the face by my training director! LOL
It is an excuse.
What is going to happen when she's on the trial field and you have no leash or impulse control?
I'm excited that you are training your girl in French Ring and want you to succeed!
Virginia
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