My version of the e-collar...

[DeDe]

Some of you know me. Most of you don't. I would very much like to see more ideas on why/why not for the e-collar work....

I will use the crate exercise for demonstration.

My puppies are now 8 weeks old. They know at night, when I let them in and say "crate" that it's a command and they go to their crates. Sometimes, granted, with a little help still.
When my pups are 12 weeks old and I give the same command, they go into their crates and wait for me to close the door. True, they may wander along the way, but, they've shown me that they know.
When my pups are 6 months old and I tell them "crate", occasionally they give me the paw and ignore me! At this point in time, I scruff them rather roughly, lift their front feet off the ground, repeat the command, and pitch them into their crate. They know the command (Proven since 12 weeks of age) yet chose to ignore me (testing 1, 2, 3.....).
Now that the dog KNOWS the command, has been shown that compliance is mandatory, and we want quick, reliable responses, we introduce the e-collar.
First off, with the collar, the dog has been allowed to wear it, off and on, at various times during the day and night without it ever being turned on. After about 4 or 5 days, while out for a play session, I turn on the collar to it's lowest setting to see what level the dog will respond to. I press the button, with no vocalization on my part, and watch the reaction of the dog. Depending on the type of collar, Tri-Tronics vs. Dogtra etc, your level numbers will vary. If there is no reaction on the first level, I bump it up to the next one. After a few minutes I try again. I repeat this until I see the smallest reaction from the dog. NO PAIN IS INVOLVED!
Once this low level is found for this particular dog, we return to our crate exercise. SInce this is a command the dog already knows and is just slow to respond to, all we are doing is building speed in compliance. First I press the 'continuous' button. The dog shows a mild reaction which is quickly followed with the command. The dog quickly responds to the command as it's not too sure what is going on. As soon as the dog enters the crate, the stimulation stops and is IMMEDIATELY followed with lots of praise. We have just tought the dog 2 things. 1-HOW to turn off the collar. 2-Quick compliance is required to the command.
Now that we have introduced the collar, it is worn for ALL training sessions. Last thing I want is a collar smart dog. As far as they are concerned, it's just a part of the training gear. There are many exercises in which the dog will NOT receive stimulation with at this point. The initial learning is still done with motivation, etc. The collar is only used to build speed and reliability in compliance.

Part two to follow.....

[fireball3]

While I think the e-collar has alot of useful applications, it also can be a very impersonal tool. When you do like you have done and get them used to the collar like you should, then the correction as you are describing, is to the dogs mind, coming out of nowhere. If you are trying to combat a dog giving you the paw, then I would mark the incorrect response to your command, followed by stimulation from the collar. Otherwise they are not associating the random sudden stimulation with disobeying you specifically, they will think it came from god, or the tooth fairy or the rug or chair they happen to be nearby. It's the exact same as if you didn't mark correct behavior with a "yes" or "ok", or click, or whatever before giving a reward, it becomes muddy and unclear to the dog exactly what they did right or wrong. But there's more than 1 way to skin a cat, I just find using markers both positive and negative are much clearer for the dog to learn what they did right or wrong and it puts the correction as something you are doing as opposed to the random ones a dog will think up.

[DeDe]

You are absolutely correct. What I failed to put in the above article was the verbal "No" as soon as the infraction occurred. The "Yes", as stated, is given immediately upon the correct behavior.
Thank you for catching that. It's not easy for me to put my reactions into written words without playing out the whole scenario in my mind.
I guess, then, this would be a use of several "methods" all rolled into one?

[Sue Miller]

Hi DeDe--good article. I also condition the remote too since they either click or light up when the stim is given. I put the collar on the dog & let him wear it around without any stim for about 2 weeks. I also use the remote turned on (there won't be any stim because the collar is turned off) & I take it everywhere with us. I let him see it when he's eating, when he's in his crate, when I'm training him, when I'm petting him & when I'm telling him no. I fiddle with it turning buttons, looking at it, pressing the buttons so the light goes on & they hear the click, I talk into it like a cell phone, use it like I do the tv remote. This way they not only don't get collar smart, they don't get remote smart. I've had more than one person say to me (we're dog trainers so lots of people talk to us about dogs) "Yeah, as soon as he sees the remote, he obeys me--he doesn't even need the collar on him."