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Post by vadim on Dec 27, 2009 16:15:49 GMT -5
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Post by zedemar on Dec 30, 2009 17:44:17 GMT -5
I would like to pick up this thread. First, I do not like the term defense. This is a reactive trait, which is not suitable for a good, clear and sober working dog. Agression and prey-agression are the terms that fit better. Defense is fear-aggression. During trial in protection work judges woud like to see switching drives. Prey and aggression. There are two occations for a dog to show aggression at protection work. Barking: It should be tight to the helper with proper noise, impressive and fearexiting. Stickhits: The dog should not just take them but answer. The dog should counter, press against the helper, force the grip, make a better grip. Some dogs do it themself, some can be teached for, some will never do it, some will will run. (switching drives)
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Post by Vadim on Dec 30, 2009 23:15:49 GMT -5
Harald
If Defense is "fear aggression", is there any thing positive that comes from a strong natural defensive instinct?
or is this a trait a fault that should be avoided or "bred out" of our dogs?
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Post by zedemar on Dec 31, 2009 11:12:54 GMT -5
As said before, defense is for me a reactive trait. It is a very important instinct because it helps to survive. I guess it is not possible to breed out such important instincts. It is aso not necessary. We do not need fearless idiots. We need confident dogs, that like the game. Like freeklimbimg, Bungeejumping, or skydiving. Some fear in the stomach but not in the brain and adrenaline over the top. Dogs that bite only out of defense are dangerous and not clear minded in my opinion. Also it can not be fun for the dog if it allways need to decide fight or flight as soon as it sees a helper. This dogs are not suitabe for this kind of sport. Someone with heigts phobia woluld also not enjoy bungeejumping or skydiving. It would be abuse to require it.
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Post by Vadim on Jan 17, 2010 13:27:12 GMT -5
Here are Armin Winkler's thoughts on defense. how this compare to your ideas?
Defense drive
A lot has also been written about this topic, however, I feel it is an aspect of protection training that is often misinterpreted. Therefore I will spend some time discussing the defense drive. Defense drive definitely falls within the category of aggressive behaviors in dogs. But I think the biological significance of this drive needs to be examined closer in order to get a proper perspective. Defense drive can appear in conjunction with other behaviors and drives, or as self defense. Defense of prey, defense of territory, and defense of a weaker pack member (such as a puppy) are common overlaps during which defensive behaviors will appear. I will address these overlaps a bit more later. For now I want to discuss self defense further.
Self defense behavior does not only belong in the realm of aggressive behaviors. It also falls into the realm of self preservation mechanisms. The trigger stimulus for defense drive is threat or the perception of threat. I'm sure you are familiar with a variety of techniques that are used to threaten dogs for the purposes of protection training. So I don't need to go into too much detail. One thing I want to point out though is that once the dog experiences a threat, he feels a worry or concern that harm may come to him. So the true trigger of defense behavior is the feeling of worry.
The goal of defense drive is always the same, namely making the worry go away. This is achieved when a safe distance is reached between the dog and threatener or when fear is caused in the threatener.
I use the drive specific actions as a way to split dogs' defense behaviors into three divisions. The first major division is between the active defense reaction and the passive defense reaction.
Active defense reaction
The active defense reaction is a very aggressive form of defense behavior. This type of aggression falls in the category of re-active aggression. My description of the active defense reaction is that once the dog gets the trigger stimulus for the defense drive, he uses physical violence as a means to achieve his drive goal. I am deliberately using the term violence here to make a point. Dogs who show this reaction will resort to biting as the first or one of the first responses that their programmed behavioral pattern dictates for this drive. This is my personal line of distinction that I use when I assess dogs. The reaction is strong and powerful and stems from confidence in the dog. Dogs exhibiting this form of defensive reaction will go towards the threat and attack the threat physically. They show a clear "offence is the best defence" mentality.
Passive defense reaction
The passive defense reaction is split into two separate forms to give us our three divisions.
First there is the strong passive defense reaction. This reaction is one that we see in confident and strong dogs. The dog uses threatening displays such as barking, growling and gesturing while confidently standing his ground. The big distinction is that behaviors other than biting appear as the first responses to the trigger stimulus. And because the initial response is not physical, I classify this reaction as passive. Why a passive or non-physical response appears before the biting response can have different causes. One major one is simply the predetermined behavioral response pattern that the dog was born with. Another cause in highly social dogs is that they realize the threatener is human, and the biting response is inhibited, so other forms of defense behaviors are used first. I do not believe that dogs who show this type of reaction are any less tough or strong than dogs showing the active reaction. Generally dogs who fall into this category of passive defense can be taught to bite in defense quite readily. They will bite when a threat cannot be driven back by other means and continues to advance.
Second there is the weak passive defense reaction. During this reaction we can see the dog using threatening displays such as barking and growling, etc., but he is retreating to maintain a safe distance. How quickly a dog will retreat will vary. These types of dogs are definitely weaker and have less confidence than the two types discussed previously. They will only bite as a last rsort when retreat is blocked and the threat continues to advance. This falls into the category of fear biting and is everything but an active response.
There are a few more points I'd like to mention regarding defense drive. I strongly believe that these three defense drive categories are pre-determined and that this predetermination sets limits to how much we can change through training. Comments like "we need to put more defense into this dog" make me cringe and feel sorry for the dog. All we can do is work with what the dog brings with him. Less mature dogs generally cannot show either of the two strong reactions, so the only defensive reaction that can be elicited from them is the weak passive reaction. The strong reactions rarely appear in dogs before 18 months of age. An important point to remember when training young dogs.
As with all drives, the stimulation threshold is a factor during the assessment process. In this case the threshold is at what point the dog feels concern or worry. This threshold can be raised through deliberate confidence building exercises.
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Post by zedemar on Jan 18, 2010 15:43:19 GMT -5
This meets my thoughts very close. Kynologists tends to describe drives much separated. But in my opinion and my experience, there is much more in between. In dogsports there is a team in the field. Handler and dog. When it comes to defense, it is the responsibility of the pack-leader to defend. Can you see the conflict? If you make your dog to defend you, you are going to loose your face in the eyes of your dog. If you send your dog into a situaton to defend itself, while you are there and will not help, the same. To me the keyword is prey-aggression. Like the hunting dogs. This makes the handler the strategist in the backgrond who sends out the member(s) of the pack to make their job. In this case you will remain Nr.1 and be able to praise the dog for a good job. I hate just to be able to express myself with just few words.
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Nellie
Titled Dobermann
Member - Service Dogs of America
Posts: 186
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Post by Nellie on Jan 18, 2010 18:22:40 GMT -5
Very interesting and I agree with this, as far as it goes. But, I think he should have expounded more on the last 2 sentences.
“In this case the threshold is at what point the dog feels concern or worry. This threshold can be raised through deliberate confidence building exercises.”
I don’t have the experience that some here do but I have been working my Dobermanns for about 18 years. It has been my experience that raising the ‘threshold’ is the key to the training. The problem being that most decoys don’t really know how to do this. Without the high prey drive of a Mal or DS or even most GSD’s there is not much to carry the Dobermann through with a decoy that pushes a bit too hard in the defense work.
The article states “So the true trigger of defense behavior is the feeling of worry.” Dogs don’t learn when they are ‘worried’. What Armin terms ‘confidence building exercises’ we term teaching the dog to enjoy the fight. Similar to training a boxer. Give him the tools he needs to win. A young Dobermann with little training (no experiences to build his confidence) will be re-active. That same dog with some training, who is taught to enjoy the fight and know he can win, will be more pro-active. And I believe that is what we want from our dogs.
The Dobermann’s natural genetics will bring defense drive to the table, often with nothing to back it up. It is our job to channel that drive and to teach him how to use it, without putting him in conflict. A good decoy that can understand this will create a confident pro-active working dog. The ones that don’t understand will tell you to get a Malinois.
Nellie
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Post by Bitten on Jan 19, 2010 7:33:04 GMT -5
This meets my thoughts very close. Kynologists tends to describe drives much separated. But in my opinion and my experience, there is much more in between. In dogsports there is a team in the field. Handler and dog. When it comes to defense, it is the responsibility of the pack-leader to defend. Can you see the conflict? If you make your dog to defend you, you are going to loose your face in the eyes of your dog. If you send your dog into a situaton to defend itself, while you are there and will not help, the same. To me the keyword is prey-aggression. Like the hunting dogs. This makes the handler the strategist in the backgrond who sends out the member(s) of the pack to make their job. In this case you will remain Nr.1 and be able to praise the dog for a good job. I hate just to be able to express myself with just few words. Sorry Harald, but I disagree ... 1 - yes, the handler is the pack leader, but as in nature, the pack leader gives the order to his "soldiers" to attack - the pack leader is the observer, the one that evaluate the threat, hence the pack leader doesn't not loose "face" when having the soldiers perform their work in the pack. 2 - There's no such thing as "defense aggression" - there's defense and there's aggression - A dog that will defend, doesn't fear, it goes forward due to confidence and courage, to defend it self, it's pack ect. against the possible danger 3 - Defense is an instinct, aggression is a drive which sets in motion through the fight 4 - Barking, is the tool a dog has to warn, tell people and/or animals off - don't move or!!! it's nothing to do with aggression - yes, it's preferred that a dog actually bark / give voice when doing the so-called bark and hold, to make this exercise consistent, we TEACH the dog this behavior and to REACT in this way, when the dog is in that form of situation 5 - Switching drives should come naturally, but doesn't always, hence we learn/teach the dog this behavior through training. Bitten
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Post by magictomcat on Jan 19, 2010 9:45:24 GMT -5
hi that funny nellie I was just told that at my club to get a malinois This is my frist doberman am working oh frist dog allso but am not will to give up on my dobe hes 10months working prey drive only making it fun I have lots to learn but you saying that about geting the mal is true they do have good drive
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Post by sonterra on Jan 19, 2010 13:53:50 GMT -5
Dogs don’t learn when they are ‘worried’. Hi Nellie, While I do agree with you for the most part I very much disagree with the above statement. Dogs do and are able to learn when worried or stressed. I have seen proof of this in all of my dogs. And sometimes, some of the BEST learning a dog does in under stressfull conditions to the dog. In those instances when the dog faces the fire, is worried that he may not win, but in the end he does.. he comes out a MUCH stronger dog. The dog I have now does a great deal of learning under pressure. My previous dog did a bit but not as much. So I really believe it is dependant on the dog. The french have a method called "stress training", and it is utilized very successfully, and started on very young puppies. The puppies that can work thru this method end up very strong dogs. However this is not the method for all dogs. This method works on a very specific type of dog. At any rate, dogs can learn under stress or when they are worried. Tamara McIntosh
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Post by Emouse on Jan 22, 2010 3:18:04 GMT -5
Tamara and Harald are probably closest to understanding what Armin Winkler meant.
Sport dog owners rarely see ( or need) to witness true defence i.e the desire to take the fight to the helper ( perp) as almost all the sort disciplines involve prey motivated by movement etc.
A dog trained to actually fight and enjoy combat done properley is a strong and confidant dog ( given that we start with a syutable candidate). It may produce an animal thats wholly unsuitable for sport but not always.
In training Police and Service dogs that originate from solid sport lines it is more often than not the case that these dogs fail due to the lack of natural confidence and desire to fight, whilst exhibiting almost manic prey drives.
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 23, 2010 3:06:19 GMT -5
4 - Barking, is the tool a dog has to warn, tell people and/or animals off - don't move or!!! it's nothing to do with aggression - yes, it's preferred that a dog actually bark / give voice when doing the so-called bark and hold, to make this exercise consistent, we TEACH the dog this behavior and to REACT in this way, when the dog is in that form of situation Bitten I can see where this COULD certainly be the case. But I think it depends on how the dog is trained. When a dog is trained with a squeaky toy in the blind on the bark and hold it would certainly be reactive. But as I look at our training at our club, the dog is trained from a very young age to use his bark to Activate. In this case I don't see it as Reactive.
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Post by Bitten on Jan 23, 2010 6:21:42 GMT -5
4 - Barking, is the tool a dog has to warn, tell people and/or animals off - don't move or!!! it's nothing to do with aggression - yes, it's preferred that a dog actually bark / give voice when doing the so-called bark and hold, to make this exercise consistent, we TEACH the dog this behavior and to REACT in this way, when the dog is in that form of situation Bitten I can see where this COULD certainly be the case. But I think it depends on how the dog is trained. When a dog is trained with a squeaky toy in the blind on the bark and hold it would certainly be reactive. But as I look at our training at our club, the dog is trained from a very young age to use his bark to Activate. In this case I don't see it as Reactive. -- I will not try and convince you to agree with me - but from my point of view, whether you use a toy, ball as a reward for getting the dog to bark, or the reward is a bite in a tug later sleeve - it's a lerned behaivor, not so-called aggression. The dog finds out, that by barking, it will be rewarded - this I believe is the active face, still not aggression - the longer the dog has to wait until it get rewarded for barking (imprinting consistency) the dog may become "agrivated" because it has to wait longer then normally, before obtaining rewards, still it's not aggression. Bitten
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 23, 2010 13:05:46 GMT -5
Bitten, in this context I was just speaking to the active vs reactive aspect of the point made. In that I think a good judge can tell a lot in the guarding and barking.
In another thread I mentioned that my TD does not believe in putting a helper on a dog before the age of 13 months, as his premise is that it sets up the dog to be working in the wrong drive in certain situations... one example being the point you are making about aggression in the bark and hold. As a point of interest I will get his take on that tomorrow.
On a side note there was a lot of controversy on my TD's (Lance Collins) judging at the C phase of the 2009 WUSV on some of these very points we are discussing. One major point of contention was the stance he (backed by Gunther Diegel and Jurgen Ritzi) takes that he will not award robot dogs a V in exercises where there is a lack of real conviction (aggression) in situations that call for it ( such as the bark and hold). There was a strong disapproval expressed from some handlers as well as much of the audience when dogs that appeared technically correct were not given excellent ratings in certain exercises.
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Post by zedemar on Jan 23, 2010 15:09:02 GMT -5
Bitten, you say barking is a warning. A warning is a thread, a thread is aggression.
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