Results from May 1st ZTP - Durham, NC

[anneconroy]

Hi: I'm not sure on this -- but I think the point is for off-spring if the starter ztp is breed to a dog with a ztp --

Maybe Chris R can say more on this when she gets time --

anne

[Bitten]

Starter ZTP = a ZTP like a regular ZTP, but where one or both parents to the participating dog, doesn't have ZTP themselves.
The dogs that pass a Starter ZTP, do not obtain breeding rights in Germany, but their offspring, when mated to a dog with either a ZTP or a Starter ZTP, will be allowedat a Regular ZTP, and through that obtain breeding rights in Germany.

Hope this answers your questions ... is described within the ZTP rules from DV published earlier within this thread.

[grabichler]

"Starter ZTP = a ZTP like a regular ZTP, but where one or both parents to the participating dog, doesn't have ZTP themselves.
The dogs that pass a Starter ZTP, do not obtain breeding rights in Germany, but their offspring, when mated to a dog with either a ZTP or a Starter ZTP, will be allowedat a Regular ZTP, and through that obtain breeding rights in Germany."

The key is the HD evaluation of the parents. Starter ZTP is for dogs whose parents' HD-results are not submitted, i.e. parents could have HD-evaluation (HD-1 or HD-2) but no ZTP and the offspring could still get a "regular" ZTP.

The second part is correct.

[John K]

I'm not sure how accurate the following info is but someone also told me a dog with a starter ztp is not allowed to go on to the Korung. Maybe someone else knows if this is true?

[summerwinddoberman]

In my case ,my dogs mothers hips did not go through the DV.I would have to send the films to get cert by the DV.Then i would have a full ZTP.This is what the judge said to me directly.
Until then my dog cannot be breed in Germany if someone so desired.And only Germany,any other country is fine.
And i do believe JohnKs correct about the Korung too.

Chris

[rasmuscm]

From the DV:

The Starter-ZTP is not recognized as Breed permission in Germany.

With a Starter-ZTP, HD assessments of the parent animals are not required.

The progeny of dogs with a successful Starter-ZTP are admitted to the ZTP in
Germany if both parents (father & mother) have successfully passed a ZTP or StarterZTP, provided that in terms of the relevant regulations, all necessary documentation
has been furnished.

There may be some different interpretations of this - for example - on the documentation that I received from the DV, it said for some: Starter ZTP, deutsche ZTP oder HD Mutter fehlt. meaning that the ZTP or the mother's HD rating was missing. In one case, there was a bitch entered whose sire had a starter-ZTP (or maybe a real ZTP), and I was led to believe that if the dam's hips had been submitted, this dog would have been eligible for a real ZTP. I have found no definitive words that speak to that situation, however.

[LRadcliffe]

"The key is the HD evaluation of the parents. Starter ZTP is for dogs whose parents HD-results are not submitted, ie parents could have HD-evaluation ( HD1 or HD2 ) but no ZTP and the offspring could still get a "regular" ZTP" This is interesting because I was told my female whose parents both have a HD1 rating but no ZTP would only receive a "starter" so I decided to skip it as it made no sense to me at the time. LOL now anyway as she would more than likely go for the helper than the sleeve then turn around and look at the judge ;D Thank you for all the replys! I'll keep working on my German....

[anneconroy]

This is a great thread -- Thanks Chris for the follow-up comments.

BTW: It is my understanding that the hips do not need to ve evaluated by the DV IF IF IF they were done in a country with a program that the DV recognizes. The US's OFA program is not one of those, but I don't know why that is. Would be HELPFUL if it were!

The NC crew has shown that UDC member clubs CAN host zTP's (I hope you didn't lose money). If these could be offered more often and in various parts of the US that would be super. I know the language can be a barrier depending on the judge.

It was really fun to see dogs from several different lines there -- and make new friends and see some old ones.

[kansadobe]

I have discussed getting the OFA approved by the DV with both OFA and the DV. Last Fall a representative from OFA tried to establish contact with the single hip evaluator with the DV, but he did not respond. OFA has not pursued further contact and I have not taken the time to try to further facilitate the contact. The DV agreed in principle that a correlation could be established, but we need to get the discussion started. One problem is that the DV hip evaluator lives part of the year in Germany and part of the year in South America.

I need to work on trying to get the DV officers involved with helping to establish contact.

[boomer]

I was reading over the ZtP. protection rules and it says no stick hits are actually applied at any time. Now is this correct or did Babel Fish mess up the translation?

[grabichler]

No stick hits during the ZTP, only threats.

[anneconroy]

The bite work portion of the zTP as I observed it was very basic. Handlers were encouraged to put their dogs into drive as they approached the blind. A harness/leather agitation collar were acceptable. The helper did not really so much attack the dogs (as in the old style SchH 1 attack on handler) as move quickly towards them, at an angle, presenting the arm. An out is not required.

The distance bite was about like a IPO 1 distance bite, but the helper was not moving with much speed.

This is what I observed. The test was enough to see the differences between the dogs and the equipment was an aid, not a crutch for dogs with less bite work expereince.

After having seen this "real live" zTP I think having just two levels for form and two levels for function is a VERY BROAD BRUSH critique of the dogs.

JMO

anne conroy

[boomer]

I find it strange that there is no stick hits on something as critical as a ZtP. I mean this is basically persmission to breed yet one of the things that dogs can have the most troubles with is the drive and stick hits. Does anyone know the reasoning behind this?

The ADRK ZtP. is an SchH1 routine. The USRC BST is basically the same as this except there are stick hits on the drive after the attack out of the blind and we aren't supposed to pump our dogs up before the blind.

[rasmuscm]

I can see your points about the stick hits - but on the other hand - there's already quite a bit of restrictions about what dogs you can breed in Germany - have to have a SchH 1 and a ZTP - seems like the gene pool could go to even a smaller size if that was the case. Not only that, this test is supposed to be for young dogs who haven't had much training.

Re: anne's comments about only 2 ratings for form and for temperament -- my question back would be - what would the benefit be of more ratings? Actually - conformation can be V, SG, G, and unsuitable...so that's 4 ratings.. Bitches can still pass with a G, but males need at least an SG.

Temperament is 1A, 1B, held back and unsuitable for breeding. So those are 4 possibilities as well. The only 'passing ones' are 1A and 1B, so maybe that's what you're talking about. I think from watching, we can tell the super/duper 1As from the ok 1As... :-)

[anneconroy]

yeah -- your right --

ac