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Post by rosamburg on Feb 18, 2011 15:40:57 GMT -5
I am curious as to the implications of the test availability. The way I read the data it has identified the gene responsible for 85% of the cases of DCM. Dr. Meurs was quick to point out that in their estimation that the Homo positive dogs should be removed from breeding but het positive dogs should not necessarily be, if everything else is optimal (I would presume breed worthy, titled, other health clearances, holter, etc.) In my mind this presents a number of scenario's for breeding. Some of these have the potential to present moral and ethical dilemmas for some. As a puppy buyer would you now buy a puppy you know to be Homo +, Het + or would only accept a puppy that is negative? This goes beyond the short term implications, and almost brings up more questions than answers. Do people think that breeders will start culling puppies that are homo+, Het+  Do they anticipate breeding more often to produce more negative dogs and culling the homo+ or possibly even het+ dogs? How should puppies be "culled"? Euthanize to prevent over population of positive dogs and to remove the possibility of them being bred? Should the culling amount to puppy buyers be given a reduced price for positive het or positive homo dogs and put on a spay/neuter only contract? |
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Post by landgraf on Feb 18, 2011 16:00:47 GMT -5
This is a great post. I personally would probably not breed to or breed a homo+/+ dog, however I would breed to a hetero -/+ dog if I felt he were a good fit given his family history is also fairly strong in health. To me family history should be weighed heavily also in these situations.
With the lack of breeding material we have we can't discount 45% of the population, the working bloodlines have so few dogs to choose as it is. Still we should try to eventualy work towards a DCM negative dog and at least one of the parents should be negative for the gene in my opinion.
Looking forward to hearing from the consumer.
Wendy
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Post by Bitten on Feb 18, 2011 16:09:32 GMT -5
Without going into details at this moment - it's my understanding that the mutated gene PDK4 is NOT responsible for 85% of the known DCM cases -
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Post by symmetrydobes on Feb 18, 2011 16:30:36 GMT -5
Speaking as a consumer, I don't think I'd make my choices solely on this test alone. As Wendy said, there are other factors to look at so I for one would be looking at the total picture, including family history specifically.
I don't think I would purchase from any breeder that was breeding homo+ to homo+ but would certainly consider any breeding where one parent was negative. Or even hetero+
The test doesn't tell us enough, IMO to make a hard and fast decision on how or when to cull puppies. I think it's too early for that.
Tamara
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Post by landgraf on Feb 18, 2011 16:34:08 GMT -5
So far it shows the gene is found in 85% of the known DCM cases, just 15% are testing negative which does suspect another gene as Dr. Meurs thought.
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Post by Bitten on Feb 18, 2011 17:00:51 GMT -5
So far it shows the gene is found in 85% of the known DCM cases, just 15% are testing negative which does suspect another gene as Dr. Meurs thought. This is not correct - The 15% in question, are the dogs which tested negative to the test, but have already been clinical diagnosed with DCM. As merely a fragment of all tested dogs have undergone clinical testing, this amount might be higher. The 85% of known DCM cases - I really do not know where this number comes from, as that would mean, that all dogs which have tested either het and homo positive, also have been clinically tested and through that diagnosed with DCM, which is not the case. The overall results of the tested dogs have been divied into: 40% het positive 5 % het homo positive 55% negative adding the het and homo will merely come to 45% that have tested positive to the test, adding the additional the 15% of the negative dogs, that have already been diagnosed with DCM = 60% - neither comes even close to 85% ... Hence the mutated PDK4 gene can not be responsible for 85% of the cases of DCM. |
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Post by landgraf on Feb 18, 2011 17:27:19 GMT -5
OK lets try to make this clearer. Of the dogs tested at WSU Those that are showing signs of DCM through either a positive echo or from a positive holter 85% have tested either hetero or Homo for the gene.
Maybe this is better- Dobermanns suffering from DCM wether it is the occult stage or full blown heart failure were then tested for the gene and 85% are carrying at least one gene for DCM.
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Post by Bitten on Feb 18, 2011 17:42:07 GMT -5
OK lets try to make this clearer. Of the dogs tested at WSU Those that are showing signs of DCM through either a positive echo or from a positive holter 85% have tested either hetero or Homo for the gene. Maybe this is better- Dobermanns suffering from DCM wether it is the occult stage or full blown heart failure were then tested for the gene and 85% are carrying at least one gene for DCM. Not really - as a total of the dogs which have tested positive = 45% of all dogs tested, and if - as I understand your entry - 85% of those dogs have been clinical diagnosed with DCM, that would mean that 15% of the dogs which have tested positive to the test haven't tested positive on a clinical test = that a total of the dogs which have tested both positive to the test and also to a clinical test comes to 38,25%. |
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Post by landgraf on Feb 18, 2011 18:06:13 GMT -5
No your not understanding were the 85% comes from. guessing maybe a translation thing?
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Post by Vadim on Feb 18, 2011 18:14:45 GMT -5
Easy way to solve this:
How many dogs showing signs of DCM through either a positive echo or from a positive holter were tested?
How many of those tested positive for this gene?
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Post by rosamburg on Feb 18, 2011 18:35:19 GMT -5
Easy way to solve this: How many dogs showing signs of DCM through either a positive echo or from a positive holter were tested? How many of those tested positive for this gene? I don't recall the number of actual dogs that were tested that have been formally diagnosed with dcm, but of the number that were, 85% tested + for the gene. I am sure a lot more will be understood in the next few years, as well as a couple of generations going through testing and changes in breeding decisions etc. Rather than get caught up in the data, the fact remains that puppies can be tested. What do people perceive as the implications of this? |
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Post by vrulli on Feb 19, 2011 8:38:32 GMT -5
Rather than get caught up in the data, the fact remains that puppies can be tested. What do people perceive as the implications of this? As a consumer, I would PREFER a puppy that tested clear for the DCM marker gene and Vwb. Buying a puppy is a huge investment both financially and emotionally (IMO). This would be especially important if you were looking at selecting puppies for breeding. A question, I'm not seeing the popular euro working sires on the WSU list? |
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Post by elucas on Feb 19, 2011 10:24:43 GMT -5
If I was buying a sport prospect, I could see owning a negative or a heteropositive. I probably wouldn't buy a homozygous positive puppy. I also couldn't see myself buying a puppy that was unknown if the breeding could throw homozygous positives.
As a breeder, I would probably keep negative females to use in the future. I would breed negative to heterozygous positive if there were good family history, good health tests and I liked the dog.
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Post by rafensoda on Feb 19, 2011 13:34:11 GMT -5
I think it really depends on the overall dogs. If I were looking for a puppy and absolutely loved everything else about the sire and dam, but the puppy was het +, I wouldn't hesitate to buy that pup. I think it would be a HUGE mistake for breeders to stop using het + dogs. If only negative dogs were used in breeding I think that there are other genetic issues that would start popping up. The gene pool is obviously way to small as it is, and I think it would be very detrimental to the breed to stop using het + dogs. If I were looking to breed a litter, ideally of course I'd want to use negative dogs, but if all other things matched up extremely well, I wouldn't hesitate to breed two het+ dogs. I think you have to look at the big picture. I have never bred a litter, though, so take this with a grain of salt.  I also don't think that culling homo+ dogs is necessary yet. I think a lot of research still needs to be done before something like this starts. I wouldn't use them for breeding, but I would think that putting them in pet homes would be fine until we find out if a homo+ dog will die from DCM at a young age without a doubt. What it the homo+ dogs will definitely get DCM, but maybe onset won't be until the dog is 10? That dog could have had a long, full life with a wonderful family. |
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Post by sonterra on Feb 20, 2011 15:53:12 GMT -5
A question, I'm not seeing the popular euro working sires on the WSU list? The Finnish Dobermann club has an extensive list of dogs tested and they maintain their own database. There are quite a few well known working dobes with results on that page. Tamara McIntosh |
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