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Post by rosamburg on Jan 21, 2011 2:10:25 GMT -5
I thought I would start a thread on direction people would like to see with the development of the Dobermann breed. It was touched on in the newcomer thread.
Some of my thoughts are what do we strive for? Do different sports require different temperament needs? I have had a few conversations with a new club member who did FR for several years and was a certified decoy in PSA. I have also visited a FR club (Langley Ringsports) and had several conversations with the TD there, Vince Nulles. I also attended a seminar by a French trainer/decoy last year. Outside of that, and reading and video's, my experience is limited to Schutzhund.
I found it interesting to hear the perspective of two new guys at the club. I remember them both laughing and saying that they NEVER thought they would end up doing Schutzhund. Apparently their past exposure to the sport was completely different than what their experience has been at WC.
In Schutzhund I believe there are differences in how the sport is approached in terms of pressure in the protection phase. Another thing I notice in different clubs I have visited, trials I have watched, as well as in video is the difference in the level of pressure applied to the dogs. This is evident in both pre-bite pressure (long bite and attack out of the back transport) as well as pressure once the dog is on the sleeve.
That said what do we want in our dogs?
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patrick
Titled Dobermann
Posts: 133
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Post by patrick on Jan 21, 2011 8:23:08 GMT -5
Hi Steve
I think overall all different dogsports (ring, schutz, etc) have different levels of pressure under different circumstances. For example the OB in schutz needs a much perciser level of exicution than it does in ring. On the other hand in the "broken attack" in ring a dog has to deal with a lot of pressure too in most cases. I know a lot of oldtimers in ring who make such statements too as the one you mentioned in your post but I believe it has a lot to do with the methods used in the old days as well. Those guys had maybe 5 or 6 dogs before they had "the right one". (mind you I've seen this in schutz as well)
I think a good dog has to be able to work under a cetain amount of pressure if nescesarry from time to time wether it is in ring or schutz. A, example: take a dog and train him in OB to the standart of "as long as it ain't too bad" and let him bite on a leash all the time. He probably will do well. Now take that same dog and work him to a degree of perfection and see what will happen. My estimation with a dobermann 85 percent won't make it.
I'm always amazed how many people judge a dog purely based on his biting capacity and forget the overall nerves and stability of the dog. A grip can be worked but a bag of nerves which ain't stable is a different matter imo.
Speaking of pressure towards a helper is imo a pure training thing. We've discussed this once before. Those so called "dobermanntechniques" or adapted training towards dobes is bullshit. A training should be adapted towards a certain type of dog no matter what breed. That's why we see so many titled dobes who will never go further than that stage.
btw Nice to see you back
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Post by acorn on Jan 21, 2011 9:21:06 GMT -5
In Schutzhund I believe there are differences in how the sport is approached in terms of pressure in the protection phase. Can you talk a little bit more about these differences? |
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Post by acorn on Jan 21, 2011 9:21:48 GMT -5
I'm always amazed how many people judge a dog purely based on his biting capacity and forget the overall nerves and stability of the dog. A grip can be worked but a bag of nerves which ain't stable is a different matter imo. Yes, I COMPLETELY agree with this. Thank you! |
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 21, 2011 11:48:50 GMT -5
Hi Steve Speaking of pressure towards a helper is imo a pure training thing. We've discussed this once before. Those so called "dobermanntechniques" or adapted training towards dobes is bullshit. A training should be adapted towards a certain type of dog no matter what breed. That's why we see so many titled dobes who will never go further than that stage. btw Nice to see you back Thanks Patrick, I needed to take a break from forums. In terms of pressure, I agree that it is largely a training issue, but I also think that nerves of the dog play a huge role, and that is true in all phases. However I think there is a different aspect in protection than in OB and tracking. The young bitch I am working now will take whatever pressure the helper wants to throw at her. At this point that appears to be true in pre-bite pressure as well as fight after she is on the sleeve and the pressure the helper may bring to bear. In other areas besides protection, she is fairly sensitive to her environment, and has a fairly low threshold for corrections. This was pretty clear last week during training. We have several young dogs at the club. We generally start heeling later than many people would, at about12-14 months. I got an even later start with Cairo because we have been concentrating on her sit and pay attention under distraction, as well as the quality of her expression. We start the training in heeling be getting next to a fence, and we first teach the dog to back up in the process. We use a second handler with a long lead. When the dog's focus is on the handler, we have the second handler influence the dog to back up (while the dog handler backs up). A GSD that was worked before me had his toes stepped on to get him to back up. With Cairo the second handler very lightly touched her on the chest with his toe and she flew backwards. This is a difference in sensitivity/threshold. My first bitch, Hara, on the other hand was much more thick nerved in regards to her environment and required much more of a correction to get her attention than Cairo would. I can't use a pinch with Cairo, because she would load way too much. That has also been an issue in getting a solid sit and pay attention because of her sensitivity to enviroment. |
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 21, 2011 12:22:47 GMT -5
In Schutzhund I believe there are differences in how the sport is approached in terms of pressure in the protection phase. Can you talk a little bit more about these differences? Sure. I really do not want to drone on about how things are done at my club. However, the differences in training methodology are so different that I have to go into it to a great extent to be able to make a point. I can only speak in terms of what we do and what I see at some other clubs I have visited, and the ton of video I have seen on the internet. I think it really starts out at the puppy stage in terms of creating a reactive or an active dog. What I see in most videos of training, is the dogs are stimulated to a great extent by the prey movement of the helper. In training environments at many many clubs the work appears to be 100% prey motivated. I think this is carried over into trials. The most obvious abuse of this in trial situations where exercises which are supposed to be pressure phases are really manipulated to the point where they set the dog up to be reactive to prey. For example in the attack out of the guard, the helper pops the sleeve a split second before he raises the stick and then starts running sideways. In many cases there was not much of a wait before what was supposed to be active guarding. What the exercise is supposed to do is demonstrate the defense and fight drive of the dog. It is supposed to show how well they react to the threatening motion of the helper with the stick and how well they fight the helper by hindering the helper when he is supposed to be driving the dog. In the attack out of the back transport it is supposed to show how well the dog handles pressure of a direct attack. Too often we see barely a hint of pressure (total lack of presence) and the helper stopping well before he gets to the dog and even making a little sideways motion (prey). The same is true in the long pursuit (courage test). The problem is it does not test the dogs. The potential long term real damage is that breeding decisions are made on dogs who have never been really put to the test. There is no need for the dog to be real. Instead Schutzhund is being turned into a complete game. It is not done that way everywhere, however. Often a dog gets taken out of that play environment and put into a situation where they really have to perform under real pressure. The dog folds because it sees something it has never seen before. Of course too often the handler blames the judge, the decoy, blah, blah, blah. |
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Post by ukdobe23 on Jan 21, 2011 12:26:51 GMT -5
I can relate to that. When my boy is playing tug or doing bitework he is pretty focused and can handle pressure but ordinarily in everyday life things in the environment that he has not come across get his attention.
Some he reacts to more than others but he is still young. Nice to know im not the only one.
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Post by vrulli on Jan 21, 2011 12:59:25 GMT -5
[/quote] With Cairo the second handler very lightly touched her on the chest with his toe and she flew backwards. This is a difference in sensitivity/threshold.[/quote]
Sounds like a typical doberman to me! LOL
This is not really a bad thing. In fact this sensitivity could make for some nice "flashy" obedience. It sounds like your mentors are trying to adapting training strategies.
This brings to mind the styles and techniques preferred by the fresher minds out there... maybe they would work better for your girl (example: Michael Ellis)?
Glad to hear she is coming along!
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Post by symmetrydobes on Jan 21, 2011 16:57:15 GMT -5
Steve, just to clarify...
Do you see your girls sensitivity in OB as a weakness in her character?
I have experience watching the west coast methods at my own club as my TD has mentored under Lance.
I personally have always wondered how a more sensitive dog would do in that training program; there have been moments where I could not actually stand to watch the pressure being put on the GSD's at my club. Knowing that most modern day GSD are quite insensitive and high threshold, I question how a dog with any lower thresholds would survive in that program...or of it would just be washed and labeled as weak?
While I agree that our dogs shouldn't be babied and limped through the Sch program, I wouldn't say that a reasonably sensitive dog is really such a bad thing...and don't think it an issue to modify my training method to suit the dogs personality. Not every method works for every dog, but that doesn't make the dog any less quality at the end of the day.
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 23, 2011 13:34:51 GMT -5
Steve, just to clarify... Do you see your girls sensitivity in OB as a weakness in her character? I have experience watching the west coast methods at my own club as my TD has mentored under Lance. I personally have always wondered how a more sensitive dog would do in that training program; there have been moments where I could not actually stand to watch the pressure being put on the GSD's at my club. Knowing that most modern day GSD are quite insensitive and high threshold, I question how a dog with any lower thresholds would survive in that program...or of it would just be washed and labeled as weak? While I agree that our dogs shouldn't be babied and limped through the Sch program, I wouldn't say that a reasonably sensitive dog is really such a bad thing...and don't think it an issue to modify my training method to suit the dogs personality. Not every method works for every dog, but that doesn't make the dog any less quality at the end of the day. Not at all. The system seems to work with any dog regardless of sensitivity. The guidance I get from Lance is that more finesse is needed in handling her than I would need for another dog. It is always about where the dog's threshold is anyway and going just a tad beyond that. I am paying a lot of attention to balance in the work in regards to her expression/working in drive/focus on the handler under distraction. Many people can get great expression with a sensitive dog with positive reward systems. where this methodology most obviously falls apart is in protection. It can even happen in the obedience phase in a larger arena outside of a club trial, such as in a stadium with a lot of motion, activity and noise. Cairo is not a soft dog, which many people envision when they hear the word sensitive. In protection she takes anything that is thrown at her, even from Lance Collins. But outside of the protection field she is almost hypersensitive to her environment and distractions are a constant challenge. This is the challenge I find in working with her. The expression is the key. What holds me back the most is my own handling ability. Fortunately it is better than it used to be, but I still have a long ways to go and have to be really as sensitive as the dog in certain situations. I expressed this to Lance yesterday and he laughed at me and said "you picked the color". Incidentally I had a conversation with John K last week regarding what I am dealing with in different phases. I felt I needed an experienced Dobermann handler's perspective. I found it interesting to hear him say, that that was exactly how Eisa was in the work. I was too young in the sport to notice that kind of thing when I trained with him, especially since she was already titled and her foundation work was done by the time I started training with them. Each year I see people at work week, who supposedly get guidance from Lance who don't really completely grasp the methods and employ them incorrectly. Some have been there a number of times and are still pretty clueless. It takes a long to time to fully understand the system (even for someone at the club). I am not really sure someone could do it in just a few years of coming out occasionally and attending work week. As far as your TD, I think you are talking about Frank, and he seems to get it more than most, but the subtlety of differences of handling dogs with different thresholds would take lot of experience and a very long time. |
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Post by LRadcliffe on Jan 23, 2011 17:16:17 GMT -5
" the system seems to work with any dog regardless of sensitivity" I was at Lance Collins WW last spring and although I have great respect for Lance, IMO the "system" is not right for every dog especially young dogs. I am talking about the OB only. Too much pressure is not good if you want to work as a team and have a good bond with your dog. The protection training I saw there was no different than what most clubs do. The tracking was exceptional though for me. Of course this is all MO.....
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Post by LRadcliffe on Jan 23, 2011 17:45:53 GMT -5
" But outside the protection field she is almost hypersensitive to her enviornment" IMO dobermann's with high drive and all sport dogs for that matter need a lot of " outside the sport field " time in social situations to build confidence. Especially when they hit that one and a half year and can start to grow emotionally in their brains. I have seen a lot of people who only go to club and their dogs look great in protection in drive but are not confident off the field. This often gets looked at as some kind of temperment problem. When the handler needs to continue confidence building even when the dog is not a puppy but young adult. It is interesting to me how people always talk about the past dobermann's and how the nerve was better, which I agree with to a point, but maybe also it had a lot to do with what they were doing with their dobermann's and what they exspected from them.
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Post by L Radcliffe on Jan 23, 2011 18:33:13 GMT -5
" a GSD that worked before me had his toes stepped on to get him to back up" "with Cairo the second handler very lightly touched her in the chest with his toe and she FLEW backwards this is the difference in Sensitivity/threshold" I would say this is a smart girl!! just wondering Steve if you got her right back on the fence after this or how it worked out for you? I also am not clear from your post if Cairo is already heeling forward well before you train her to back up? I thought she was a very nice young bitch when I saw her at WW with great drives for the sleeve  |
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 23, 2011 22:57:28 GMT -5
" the system seems to work with any dog regardless of sensitivity" I was at Lance Collins WW last spring and although I have great respect for Lance, IMO the "system" is not right for every dog especially young dogs. I am talking about the OB only. Too much pressure is not good if you want to work as a team and have a good bond with your dog. The protection training I saw there was no different than what most clubs do. The tracking was exceptional though for me. Of course this is all MO..... Yes, and everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. |
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Post by rosamburg on Jan 23, 2011 23:00:47 GMT -5
" a GSD that worked before me had his toes stepped on to get him to back up" "with Cairo the second handler very lightly touched her in the chest with his toe and she FLEW backwards this is the difference in Sensitivity/threshold" I would say this is a smart girl!! just wondering Steve if you got her right back on the fence after this or how it worked out for you? I also am not clear from your post if Cairo is already heeling forward well before you train her to back up? I thought she was a very nice young bitch when I saw her at WW with great drives for the sleeve We had started to heel forward a few sessions ago including yesterday, but backed off and decided to go back to improving the sit and pay attention under severe distraction. I thought it was solid but it became too obvious that it needed more securing. BTW at work week she was not on a sleeve only a tug. She did not see a sleeve until she was 14 months. |
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